Saveload WR table

Look for replays and levels and ask people's times.

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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by abruzzi »

iCS wrote:Labyrinth Pro under 2 minutes!
https://youtu.be/jv1RPp7LvcI

Extremely nice movie, pleasant to watch, great thanks for Zweq and bene for not abusing abnormal bounces. It's nice that the wheelpop usage is implemented as well, nice to see a new trick working well. But some parts of recs look too artificial and it's definitely not possible.

1:31.000-1:31.500 impossible glue, even if such strong grip, if your bike has enough speed, it won't be pulled like that. maybe if u use nitro patch "don't rear while accelerating" and increased speed

1:45.500-1:46.000 same

imo even tas should be theoretically reproducible, sach grip is?
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Labs »

iCS wrote:Labyrinth Pro under 2 minutes!
https://youtu.be/jv1RPp7LvcI
Wow! Awesome vid, nice rec :beer:
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by bene »

abruzzi wrote: imo even tas should be theoretically reproducible, sach grip is?
Those parts uses wheelpops several times per second to keep grip.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Zweq »

it's just a fastest poss ride we could make based on the rules of madness' table, we tried to use our best judgement.

if there was some other rules then the ride would be different.

we dont know if this chain pop stuff is "theoretically reproducable", all we know is that it is very easy to do with mila sl.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Lukazz »

wtf. holy crap. the wheelpop-thingies look as unreal for me as bene's under 10 min speedrun. can't imagine how much work was put into this. :o
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by jblaze »

these 1:30 and 1:45 etc look like some alien force :D pleasant to watch, great job, finger up
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Schumi »

very sick rec, but i think many wheelpops are such unnatural. the new styles would have made the run u2min anyway, so i dont understand the sense in megaslidespeedincreasing pops...

the same goes for warm up and bumpy. these replays are somewhere between bene's u10tt video, and natural feeling of elma
Last edited by Schumi on 29 Jul 2017, 19:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by pawq »

I have to say, watching Zweq and bene create those wheelpops in Animal Farm with my own eyes made me understand WHY. It looked like awesome fun, and a challenge at the same time :D I enjoyed SLing during WCup for the same reason - it's artificially pushing boundaries of what's possible to pull off in elma. That wheelpop shit with changing fps between max and 38 every other frame takes that to the next level :p
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by bene »

Schumi wrote:very sick rec, but i think many wheelpops are such unnatural. the new styles would have made the run u2min anyway, so i dont understand the sense in megaslidespeedincreasing pops...

the same goes for warm up and bumpy. these replays are somewhere between bene's u10tt video, and natural feeling of elma
Yes we had every style available from the start along with the time we would get so we could just have not used shampooing and other low fps tricks from the first day to make a slower run because Schumi likes that.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Schumi »

no offense bene, but this is forum, where i thought everyone can say his opinion... you dont have to agree, this is just an opinion. i appreciate your effort in this rec, but this is getting like something else what elma, and the elma feeling meant to be...
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Lukazz »

I don't think the goal was delivering the best "elma feeling" for the viewership, but, like Zweq said, getting the fastest possible time within the given rules - in this case Madness' rules for this SL-record table.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Schumi »

yea, but you can easily reproduce wheelpop in norm mode, however i dont see how anyone could these slidewheelpopsequence pull out in norm mode

if someone shows the same in live, i dont moan anymore :)


edit: i wait for 55 animal farm, 47 zig zag and 59 apple harvest with this trick :)
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by culinko »

Very sik rec, those wheelpops really help you get proper angle for the next polygon, then you just do another wheelpop and so on and so on, beautiful utilization of teh, is like puzzle pieces fitting together. I wonder, how much time did you two put into this run and could you possibly tell us who drove which part? I am very curious. Also now that we know that Lab Pro is pos under 2 min, do you feel that levs which are currently above 1 min are doable under 1 min?

And Schumi now you know why some time ago I tried to argue in Madness' SL WR topic to ban the (strong? ugly? can't remember) wheelpops :twisted: U can check the topic history to see what we talked about but it was oke discussion imo. I remember asking ppl for feedback about it back then and I think I had some talk about fps or sach with Zweq. I know it's Madness' table so he makes the rules, but still I'm curious if anything changed within community since then and after seeing this rec and wonder if more people will participate in the discussion about wheelpops and sach.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Schumi »

i dont see problem with wheelpops that can easily be reproduced in norm mode, because if you can apply for exampl. 10 wheelpops in a lev in total, probably impsy in a live run, but easy with SL. these wheelpops however disturb (at least mine) the eye

all i say is that if someone shows it in an example level real-time, i dont argue with anyone anymore but stay silent :)
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by bene »

culinko wrote:Very sik rec, those wheelpops really help you get proper angle for the next polygon, then you just do another wheelpop and so on and so on, beautiful utilization of teh, is like puzzle pieces fitting together. I wonder, how much time did you two put into this run and could you possibly tell us who drove which part? I am very curious. Also now that we know that Lab Pro is pos under 2 min, do you feel that levs which are currently above 1 min are doable under 1 min?

And Schumi now you know why some time ago I tried to argue in Madness' SL WR topic to ban the (strong? ugly? can't remember) wheelpops :twisted: U can check the topic history to see what we talked about but it was oke discussion imo. I remember asking ppl for feedback about it back then and I think I had some talk about fps or sach with Zweq. I know it's Madness' table so he makes the rules, but still I'm curious if anything changed within community since then and after seeing this rec and wonder if more people will participate in the discussion about wheelpops and sach.
Thank you. This trick (chainpoping, shampooing) might further motivate the need for a different table with different rules because you can beat many times with it. I would be interested in competing in a max fps only (or some fps only) table if someone can make eoltas run with const fps for everyone.

Animal farm is for sure possible under 1 min with this trick. I tried for 5 mins (After spending an hour or two tasing that style with zweq during fem) and improved z run by 0.5 and that is just in one spot. It would require a couple of hours work though (20-40?) because the style is extremely hard to pull of. Apple harvest would be interesting to test but I don't see 8s being possible to improve there. But the same was true for lab pro, our first finish was 2.04 and we had no idea how to improve 4.5s to make under 2 mins.

There is a log of who did what, found what style, finished runs, tricks found and when but it is incomplete and needs to be fixed up. I intend to finish it up some day soon and release that.

For how much time we spent I have no idea. The last apple style took maybe 4 hours to pull off first time (Finding moves and everything after realizing that it is possible and faster) and I had to do it twice because the first time was in a slower run (1:55,92) that had two too strong bounces that we wanted to remove it is one of the harder tricks I did in the ride. Much time was spent finding styles.
Last edited by bene on 29 Jul 2017, 21:44, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by bene »

Schumi wrote: all i say is that if someone shows it in an example level real-time, i dont argue with anyone anymore but stay silent :)
Not every trick that you can do in TAS is possible to do live. This is true for every game. What we maybe need to do is to prove that it is theoretically possible but actually pulling it off with the current way it is done is currently way too hard for live runs. I did a 4 chain pop in a live run in a spot where it is easy but that is far from the 10-15 that is done with TAS and the finish time was slower than what I did with only one pop. I'm sure you can do 4-5 chains in a few places/levels that are also fast with practice.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Madness »

Surreal rec, looks like from a different world! Watched the video for over 10 times! Thanks for sharing.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Ramone »

if you guys thinks this rec is weird...

wait til you see wu 13.45 :DDDD

Hmm. I go watch it now.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Grace »

Those chainpops 8O

What a sexy replay. That section for 1:15 to 1:30 is so beautiful to watch.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by iltsu »

I agree with schumi. Too poppy
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Xiphias »

Why do some parts look like nitro was used? The downhill part in the middle/end for instance. I think the use of popping where ever possible is great but those nitro places look weird af. Is it just me or does the bike accelerate too fast?
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by pawq »

It accelerates "too fast" because the gasing wheel has grip all the way, when it should lose grip in our eyes. It gains a lot of speed and is legal according to the SL rules, so why nat? It's a lot more entertaining for my than those 5s recs with bugbounces all the way :p
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by bene »

pawq wrote:It accelerates "too fast" because the gasing wheel has grip all the way, when it should lose grip in our eyes. It gains a lot of speed and is legal according to the SL rules, so why nat? It's a lot more entertaining for my than those 5s recs with bugbounces all the way :p
Don't forget that each wheelpop also adds speed to the bike so this is a faster way of acceleration than just having perfect grip and gasing all the way or something.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Zweq »

plot twist: bene didnt orka wheel pop and actually used nitro
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Madness »

Update:

35. Labyrinth Pro  —  anpdad - 2:06.05   :arrow:   bene - 1:55.48

Total Time Drop — 10.57
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by bene »

Closing in on u33
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Xiphias »

So basically you could rerun all levels with this trick for an decrease of 1-5% or even more in each level? Or do some special conditions come into play to create this 100 pops per second trick?
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by bene »

Useful anywhere where you can lose grip like this which I guess is quite many spots. Need to make sure you don't overrotate and die only which is a common problem. Like in int01 tas rec i brake after chainpops to realign bike because overrotate. Same in 34 I guess.
It is like 10-15 pops in that 1:30 downhill not 100.
The only special condition is the abusive fps change that is going on to make it better and easier to do.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Xiphias »

Very interesting :) Keep up the good work! Looking forward to see more saveload wrs.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Schumi »

Lukazz wrote:
dat headbanger rec! very looking forward to this :mrgreen:
when comes this?
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Labs »

I think after u33,
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Schumi »

then zigzag needs to be done in 48sec
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Madness »

2020
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Bjenn »

Me and bene drove 13.74 (I think) in Hill Legend, but you can write bene in table.
Please tell the correct time bene.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by bene »

Already submitted it to madness forgot exact time.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Schumi »

Shampoo time or just simple wheelpop?
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by bene »

welcome to my ignore list Schumi
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Zweq »

gz schumee
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Schumi »

Sry ben i dont give an f... This behaviour reminds me when i was a 12 years old child
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by kuchitsu »

Ye dunno what was the problem with Schumi's question. It's good to describe the ruleset used while making a rec so that people can better decide how to view it.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Hosp »

I don't like this new (maybe nat) culture of oke I don't like you (your opinion) -ignore-
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by bene »

I don't feel like being asked if it's a shampoo time for every shitty 0.0x improvement I make.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by milagros »

we have to define what a shampoo time is - if you do unintentionally two pops (one with higher fps) and you don't notice, then you get disqualified from the non-shampoo table
then there will be one more table with an allowed pop + small pop
there should also be a table which allows 2 small wheel pops and of all combinations of strength of bounces + wheel pops
yeah, lots of tables! ez better!
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Grace »

bene wrote:I don't feel like being asked if it's a shampoo time for every shitty 0.0x improvement I make.
Quite simple to just not respond.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by iltsu »

Shampooing is shit and i hope it had ever been founded.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Zweq »

wel.. TAS tends to progress towards the more theoretical stuff like chain poop. It happens in every game that is TASed.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Schumi »

Wheelpop exists in normal elma. Shampoo not. As of my knowledge it is a hack of frames and pixels. But i am nab to shampoo technics. Trix Abound is still borderline cuz of fps change... But i think shampoo is way too out of limits... Just an opinion...

I feel that the desire to make better times in elma is slowly suppressing the clarity and common sense. Shampooing is a great invention of its kind, but its imho harms the world of elma...
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Zweq »

I think you are wrong. Fps can theoretically drop from 999 to 30, therefore extreme shampoo like in lab pro rec is possible. Simple 30fps chainpoping is even possible to do live for around 2-3 pops, any more than that it gets extremely improbable very quickly and therefore is impsy without tools
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by bene »

Zweq wrote:Simple 30fps chainpoping is even possible to do live for around 2-3 pops, any more than that it gets extremely improbable very quickly and therefore is impsy without tools
I did 4 live in 52s spot in lab pro after like 20 minutes of trying. It's extremely hard and I learned a rhythm to press brake at that worked with the approach I used. I had a train level that started from zig zag drop spot. More than that is extremely hard. Just imagine pressing brake on correct frame for one frame 8 times during one second.
With tas and 38 fps I got 8 pops without changing fps.

Some real chain pops according to zamppe definition that is used in lab pro 1:30 spot is never possible live because it heavily abuses fps change to provide an extremely unreasonable scenario that still can happen in a computer probably but will never. But simple ones are compeltely possible.

Edit: What I mean is that yes FPS change can occur and that means it is theoretically possible. But to have FPS change occur at correct frame intervals at the correct frame while you are tapping the brake key ensuring to only have it held down for one frame at a rate of like 5 times per second for 3 seconds is too unlikely to ever happen.
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Re: Saveload WR table

Post by Tm »

with regarding to benes post about fingering brake 8 times on correct frame during one sec i see an argument against chainpoo...
simple human ability to contract muscle fingering a key that fast (keeping in mind perfect live real 1.0x speed run). maybe poss to draw line how many pops possible in second and how many frames should be not touchable (freeze) for finger after one brake pop.

following this logic all stretches, bounces around limit and lonely pops are ultra ok, as long as human can easily finger keyboard normally doing those without reaching a muscle contraction neurons firing limit.

imo is very oke argument for later sl'ings

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