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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 21:21 
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Zweq wrote:
I cant imagine how b0ne felt. I let him do al the imposible clip stuf while I spent time optimizing easy parts)).

I find bugs extremely fun to drive so I felt great. But it was extremely frusturating to do clip at 2nd apple and end, got internal errors every 0.01 and many bounces and attempts wasted because impossible.

Final rec in lab pro
http://www.recsource.tv/r/byvzjdwqgu
Quick-just-finish rec that was made cause fuk all with lab pro end.
http://www.recsource.tv/r/uzrefcmogh

I recommend you watch the two big bounces at 2nd and 3rd apple in slow motion, actually all bug recs are amazing to watch in slow motion because you can really see what goes on with the head/wheels.

My first rec managing clip after 2nd apple was http://www.recsource.tv/r/mbojldqknf, now we had to investigate if it would be poss fast to skip third apple and use a clip like this. Because the time spent driving from 2nd apple to third is quite long.
After Zanpe fooled around with 35firstbigclip he told me it still faster to grab third apple propably, even though it requires normal vromage from 2nd to 3rd apple. Remember we were still sure it is impossible to survive clipping at second apple and land at third apple norm. And we cant do some mega bounce and continue clipping to flower because this route requires apple bugs.
Saddened by zanpes news about not using my cliprec that I spent quite some time driving I went and tried and tried until I got clip and survived to third apple. Zweq drove the very last part of the bug (15,70-15,90s) where you get big speed towards the apple. He has an amazing ability to turn my close enuf attempts into something fast.
I can't really explain this clip in any norm explainable way, what I did was just vrom and see what happens, if I ended up with too much speed or too little I redrove the entire bounce with another start speed. I spent like 7 hours total or something just playing this 2 second long part of the level.

Third apple bounce-clip I will try to explain because here I had a norm idea that I managed to convert and twist to my advantage.

1. Zweq drives part after bigclip, gets third apple, does bounce that pops wheel into wall. He sends me http://www.recsource.tv/r/ctwudvmxlk and says "Here enough stretch for bugging".
How Zanpe even can imagine that clipping with just a stretch of wheel is something I still don't understand. Thinking about it now it really feels like something that is impossible.
2. I fool around making shitty attempts for a while until I realize that there is a really simple physics property that you probably can abuse. http://www.recsource.tv/r/fdpvtjhagk. Rec is driven with 999 fps to illustrate property. Doing this at lower fps will (theoretically) be stronger and able to build up enuf speed.
3. I manage to drive the same thing with low fps, since wheel just clips bike doesn't slow down and it sends it flying to the top left. A rec like http://www.recsource.tv/r/vkyiubnzhd is made. Clip is done, now to fall down instead of up left.
4. Alternate low/high fps to "insert bugged frames" causing the wheel to alternate between inside/outside the wall at third apple. This makes it so the wall can be used as a hang to swing down http://www.recsource.tv/r/hrtvcyuqmi. The bugged frames also help change direction of the bug. You can do max fps and just hang but that is slow compared to bug frames.
5. Now bike is falling down, problem is that there is no stretch left so bike just falls without any bugs happening. So what is made, and shown in final rec is more weird frames to keep stretch.
6. Lazy driving while falling, alternate 100/999 fps every now and then. Reason is that only 999 fps will cause wheels to unstretch and "kill the bug" and only low fps will cause international error. This can be done anywhere while falling in a big area to keep bug alive.
7. Now bike is above flower. Why is end so hard? Because it is a big stretch that is very likely to cause a crash while you have head in a tight space. If you don't crash you most likely die.

Also the finished rec has the most butiful end frame of any bugrec. Likely the check for finish level is made before the check for crash because if you cut this rec to remove the last frame eol will crash when watching the rec.
So in theory you could make a program to bruteforce instantfinish of no apple levels?

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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 21:37 
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dafuq.

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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 22:26 
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holy fuck

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PostPosted: 15 Sep 2015, 23:49 
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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 03:46 
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btw hooked bug sucks, recs would look cooler without it

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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 12:41 
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yes, forced to ride somewhat normally to be able to do apple bugs

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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 17:26 
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It seems people have gotten some interest in this, but imo all these recs are very orka. I can imagine it takes a lot of time, patience and stylefinding, but replays are just very boring randomness

1) Find bounce spot
2) Aim the wheel to the center of the bike
3) ??????????
4) Profit

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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 17:59 
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Orcc wrote:
1) Find bounce spot
2) Aim the wheel to the center of the bike
3) ??????????
4) Profit


ye, but the ?????? part is fucking hard. try to finish a lev like this for 30 mins and you will understand how pro those recs are. bene explained a lot already, but after 30 mins i wasn't able to do shit. after i get a bug bounce i have no idea what the hell i'm supposed to do, how to get the wheel to do what i want or anything. it's totally impossible. this is GAA stuff!

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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 18:23 
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Well, sure maybe one day there will be elma2 and bug bounces will be impsy. But bug bounces will always be part of original elma and abusing them gives better times, and better times is what mans have been trying to achieve for 15 years. It's just a logical act to try find the absolute fastest ways to finish levs. To me the weird stuff is doing recs like 07z2364 or 26z2069, (it felt just ultra fuking dumb all the way making those recs).

Don't get me wrong though, I'm not excited at all about the project, bugs feel like they are full of RNG, although they really aren't, but it's practically impossible to predict what exactly happens(unless someone writes a better tool which should be pos, like what is the state of bike 100 frames to future if throttle only is held down). So because bug bounces are so "random" they are pretty much infinitely improvable by human players, and sometimes very easily, if you just get a bit lucky, this bit doesn't just manage to excite me too much. Despite me not really caring much about this project, reading all the dum as shit whine is pretty infuriating, because it really is ultra fukin dum. The fukin official WR table itself has multiple wrs that contain bug bounces and possibly even uber boucny brutals like in 05 and 07 might be related to bug bounces, but not proven by anyone yet, also 31 is debatable. "Oh you are abusing these same bugs, but without limits, what a shit projecT!!! I hope you and your recs die so we can continue having bugs with limits!!!"

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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 18:43 
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The criticism this project is getting has nothing to do with the philosophy of bug abusing I think. Some (many?) people just don't see much entertainment value in these recs because they all look totally same (as Orcc explained) and simply uninteresting (as I said, it feels like almost anything is pos = nothing is impressive; yes, I understand that there are limitations, but they are too invisible for a non-involved man to appreciate). Glitch abuse can be spectacular or not. When it is, usually noone complains except maybe the most hardcore purists. When it isn't, you get this thread I guess... So again: people aren't complaining about bug abuse, they are complaining about boring looking bug abuse.


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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 18:52 
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oke, well i dont have more to say realy, i gues we just reach somekind of cliche conclusion "all mans are different" aka "some mans have weird brane, and some don't"

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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 19:35 
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I'm laughing so hard here! These recs are amazing!!

I think I prefer seeing this labpro rec over seeing 13:97 int01 really.. This is just a whole new level of elma! Thanks for sharing.

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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 19:47 
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imo normal elma makes no sense anymore. after this project is done and "Elma Done in < 10 Mins" vid is released, we can all stop playing elma.

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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 20:02 
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Although I never liked bugs (and I still don't) I have to say that the work you guys do is impressive, so keep it going.

Also I never liked pipes. Fuck pipes.

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PostPosted: 16 Sep 2015, 23:22 
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Well I play for making (a basetime of) theoretically possible times. Not entertaining some random recsource man that votes 1 cause above his/her defined limit of acceptabel bugs.

Sure there are enough randomness to annoy anyone. But there is also skill involved. I have since start found many tricks and stuff that i can abuse to my advantage. Problem with randomness for me is that i cant höyl. I usually do the one attempt that takes hours and feel good about it.

I agree with Igge int01 rec is super bad and has supoptimal improvable shit end. Int35 is lightyears ahead in terms of coolness.

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 11:00 
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Very cool recs! amazing work)

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 20:01 
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Holy moly! you guys are crazy. :beer:

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PostPosted: 17 Sep 2015, 22:28 
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I don't get it :/

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PostPosted: 5 Oct 2015, 19:17 
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Update beating sum old times and one new:

1. Warm Up 0:08,64 -> 0:07,97
3. Twin Peaks 0:08,76 -> 0:07,30
12. Islands in the Sky 0:13,34 -> 0:08,25
16. New Wave 0:31,84 ->0:22,10
18. Spiral 0:11,21

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PostPosted: 5 Oct 2015, 23:11 
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damez my pro twstart beaten

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PostPosted: 6 Oct 2015, 02:45 
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This shit is definitely NOT elma-related

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PostPosted: 6 Oct 2015, 08:53 
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stfu nab.

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PostPosted: 7 Oct 2015, 20:04 
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milagros wrote:
btw hooked bug sucks, recs would look cooler without it

Here what the first 12 sec might look like got lazy cause way too hard so not finished. Couldn't get bounce apple norm at all.
http://www.recsource.tv/r/vqircoksfa

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PostPosted: 7 Oct 2015, 20:21 
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megapro!

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PostPosted: 8 Oct 2015, 01:41 
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wtf, how is this bug-abusing-shit even related to the good old Elasto Mania?


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PostPosted: 8 Oct 2015, 09:50 
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It's not shit, it's science.
It is still is the old Elasto Mania, but with a new twist! If you don't like it, just take a step back.

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PostPosted: 9 Oct 2015, 10:27 
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I have no idea how bene does that bugging, I understand nothing about it=/ I only do initial bounces and stuff cuz nub

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PostPosted: 9 Oct 2015, 22:01 
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It's a funny way of bugging cause it works in so many ways also it makes bugrecs even more ridiculous. It is poss to learn to drive like this with patience cause fu international errors. First clipping bugs in lab pro took hours to make and were a few seconds long and now I do these recs that are 12s long with a continuous bug in an hour or two if good level. Makes you able to test out styles and fun without too much time wasted.
Optimal for these bugs is an open level with fat polygons. Too much open air and nowhere for wheels to stick to. Too little open air and death is too common. Too thin polygons and wheels wont stick osv.
So something like int06 is super easy to finish with any bugpop, int15 is hard cause tight and far stretches and big open area before flower and thin polygons but nice cause many polygons osv.

Update:
6. Long Haul 0:12,57
15. Serpents Tale 0:11,18

int06 shows this way of driving to finish an entire level, it one of those initial bugrecs I have had since start of this and not bene able to do anything with until recently cause didn't know how to play:
http://www.recsource.tv/r/gynzotdupc

It maby is faster to bugpop under start and finish level going to left only. I waiting for zampe to provide initial recs so I can test stuff. I have no idea how zampe does initial recs :D

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PostPosted: 9 Oct 2015, 22:27 
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initial bugs are ez, but this is fucking sick:)
it must international error like every 0.2 secs

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PostPosted: 10 Oct 2015, 19:46 
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milagros wrote:
initial bugs are ez, but this is fucking sick:)
it must international error like every 0.2 secs


2015, still don't have anti-crash, lol...


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PostPosted: 10 Oct 2015, 21:41 
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if you make it anticrash, it is not the same as original elma and thus not acceptable for this table
ofc ez to remove, for example by change appropirate JNE/JE to JMP to remove the test or what

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PostPosted: 11 Oct 2015, 02:15 
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milagros wrote:
if you make it anticrash, it is not the same as original elma and thus not acceptable for this table
ofc ez to remove, for example by change appropirate JNE/JE to JMP to remove the test or what


I just made it so it either restarts the level or the last save point in your saveload when you go out of bounds/crash.
Wouldn't that be acceptable?


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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 21:35 
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Big update:

15. Serpents Tale 0:11,18 -> 0:11,05
22. Slalom 0:05,82
26. Circuitous 0:07,98
27. Shelf Life 0:25,11
28. Bounce Back 0:07,29
30. Pipe 0:16,53
33. Zig-Zag 0:18,81
36. Fruit in the Den 0:14,66
40. Double Trouble 0:04,93
53. Hooked 0:08,21 -> 0:05,89


int40 fastest relative improve internal beated int29 wow.
27 and 30 shitty wiprecs.
int53 has had many funny improvements as I learned how to play.
And tons of other norm times osv.

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PostPosted: 14 Oct 2015, 21:57 
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seems legit

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PostPosted: 15 Oct 2015, 16:43 
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i guess nothing surprises me anymore.

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2015, 15:48 
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Update:
5. Uphill Battle 0:13,23 -> 0:11,23
9. Tunnel Terror 0:41,42 -> 0:14,60
23. Quick Round 0:07,09
24. Ramp Frenzy 0:17,03 -> 0:09,53
27. Shelf Life 0:25,11 -> 0:11,77
41. Framework 0:13,80 -> 0:05,27
44. Freefall 0:06,36
45. Sink 0:12,81
51. Tricks Abound 0:11,18
54. Apple Harvest 0:21,34

int05 improved with better knowledge of bugs.
int09 improved from shit time to oke fun.
int23 norm.
int24 improved with better knowledge of bugs.
int27 improved from shit to oke.
int41 amazing time wow lucky norm bug.
int44 zweq did some run to improve 6,90 so lev doned.
int45 funny lev to bug in :)
int51 norm runk with incorrect speed in start imo.
int54 fun finish with possibly bad route, how to route this lev with bugs. ideas????

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2015, 17:12 
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hm times are way better than i expected
i guess ez 5 min tt:)

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2015, 22:27 
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It would be cool if you made a video with all your recs when you finish all ints. It could be called "Elastomania Done Quicker Than Doing a Poo".

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PostPosted: 22 Oct 2015, 23:36 
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Madness wrote:
It would be cool if you made a video with all your recs when you finish all ints. It could be called "Elastomania Done Quicker Than Doing a Poo".


Elasto Mania Done Quicker Than You Can Say "Impsy!"

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PostPosted: 23 Oct 2015, 07:11 
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"Elasto Mania Done Quicker Than Bjenn"

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PostPosted: 23 Oct 2015, 13:27 
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where can do bjenn???

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PostPosted: 23 Oct 2015, 16:49 
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Current tt if put live wrs for unfinished levs is 16:47 imo.

I share some recs cause it's friday.
int48 random funing in lev to get feel of how he is to play, this can possibly be a hard level but now I know what I want to to do osv
http://www.recsource.tv/r/yuaethnvwj

int30 shitty-wip-rec time, ofc this is improvable by like 9s with proper initial bugs.
http://www.recsource.tv/r/flenomdrjh

int53 all recs to show funny improvement over time, ignore the shitty initial bug plays this was before zanpe made them osv:

9.95 first bugrec I ever made
http://www.recsource.tv/r/hkwurjdcbz

8.21 better initial bug playing and realize (get told by mila) that direction of bug is depending on gas or brake on bugframe so can make better pop direction osv.
http://www.recsource.tv/r/vcrqzfymno

5.89 fuck all logic and make stretch-bugs. This is hard cause once wheel goes outside level there is no polygon to bug on to change direction towards apples so need to fuck around to get speed enough to clip back in without killing bug due to too many frames at 999 fps osv.
http://www.recsource.tv/r/aibuzgrwfk

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PostPosted: 23 Oct 2015, 17:36 
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The first hooked rec is very elegant)

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PostPosted: 24 Oct 2015, 05:22 
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I don't even know wtf is elma anymore

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PostPosted: 24 Oct 2015, 07:24 
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Haruhi wrote:
I don't even know wtf is elma anymore

This: http://www.moposite.com/info_games_elma.php

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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2015, 02:04 
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Lukazz wrote:
why don't you all use recsource? we are all lazy!

install this http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6930 and then right-click on rec file -> open with -> NEW!
lev files are also supported.

I have an idea for the fastest acceptable recs. I used to start this thread http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?t=9100. I had estimated that if the rec takes less than 4-5 secs the brute force calculations takes little time enough (with 30 fps). As this TAS-project shows, almost every lev can be finished with less than 4-5 secs so if u have elma code u can make brute force program to find the fastest recs. Brute force checks all possible runs so even these with mindfucking bugs.

PS. still dunno english good enough.

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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2015, 10:17 
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dawid wrote:
I had estimated that if the rec takes less than 4-5 secs the brute force calculations takes little time enough (with 30 fps).

even with every possible fps value from 30 to 999 in every frame? i doubt that.

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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2015, 10:31 
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Location: Sweden
Brute force is useful but would never be usable for playing entire recs cause there are way too many combinations possible.
When making recs I change fps very often to prevent bike/game from crashing. Under 100 fps is rarely usable cause you always either die or crash in the next 1-3 frames cause too much happens.

It would be useful for shit like int41 end where I manually get front wheel of bike to grab apples while back wheel is stretching towards flower. I grab 2nd apple at 5.26 and finish at 5.27. Took 2 hours or something to finish from 2nd apple grab. That would be norm to bruteforce and stuf. Same with no/single apple levs, can theoretically brute force to instantfinish after initial bug.

I guess I can update while I here:
48. Downhill 0:13,22

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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2015, 12:26 
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Kuski
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Joined: 10 May 2014, 19:23
Posts: 171
If u have .dat u can improve rec just since last 1-2 secs using brute force in realistic time (even with changing fps).

And I had invented new method for "brute force" that needs much less calculations. It calculates longer rec than norm brute force but still faster than human-made-TAS. My new method isn't true brute force but rather Monte Carlo method (dunno if I called it correctly). Unfortunatelly it is little hard for me to describe it in english so if anyone is able to translate from polish then pm me plz.

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PostPosted: 25 Oct 2015, 14:37 
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Cheatless
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where are the recs then?

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