World Cup 8 announcement

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Orcc
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by Orcc » 24 Nov 2020, 16:15

insane guy wrote:
24 Nov 2020, 13:12
specter2 wrote:
24 Nov 2020, 11:24
That's the most absurd thing ever. People criticize and rate movies, music, paintings.. basically any art/creations every day and it's totally normal. Just because you can't create a masterpiece yourself doesn't mean you can't tell if something's shit.
I was mainly referring to the fact that people are doing all this work in their free time, but I guess your point is valid. It just hurts a bit imo.
Being able to learn from negative feedback is an invaluable skill to have. I think for most of us the natural reaction is to take a defensive stance, but if the negative feedback is constructive instead of "you suck, can't you do anything correctly" it's really a great learning point. Getting good feedback feels good, but at least for me it doesn't really give you anything. If I do something well I already know it myself. Usually the sign of good result is when nobody says anything. People are more likely to complain instead of praise, so everyone should take the most out of negative feedback. Usually there's nothing personal even though it can feel like that at first sight.
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by pawq » 24 Nov 2020, 16:42

Nonsense answers? oke :D

What's required for a constructive 2-way discussion is constructive criticism. You've just been bashing on people without really considering the opposite point of view, or whether what you're saying makes sense (like varying apple density, which has literally no impact on anything). There are only 2 ways forward from this: either people will ignore it, or an argument will ensue. It is possible to share complaints in a constructive and non-offensive way, but you have to work on your delivery a bit specter. And surrounding complaints with compliments or appreciation goes a hell of a long way.

edit after noticing Orcc's post:

Yeah, constructive criticism is good, and there's been some of it. But constructive criticism this is not:
specter2 wrote:
23 Nov 2020, 10:00
Yet again one of the worst levels in wcup history. With minutes and minutes of driving through empty pipes and spots this level serves no other purpose than waste everyone's time. I hope anyone involved with the level selection process will understand to withdraw themselves from the future cup arrangement teams or check their motives for choosing levels. The fact that none of them has bothered to reply in this thread also shows how little they have interest towards the whole thing. This community is already a really small one and you are digging your own grave deeper by turning competitions into something that people don't want to play.
This is just bashing.

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by specter2 » 24 Nov 2020, 19:18

You missed my point about varying apple density. The point was that it doesn't make sense to have a very easy pipe in the beginning with several apples whereas a hard one a lot later only has one apple. I think the results will reveal these kinds of flaws if it's otherwise hard to see.

If you, pawq, got insulted by this thread then im sorry and you don't have to continue discussing in here, i would rather hear comments from the actual wcup team. Nothing that bad has been said in this topic, nothing personal, just criticism about their "job". There is a lot of constructive comments in this thread by me and other people too, none of which have received any comments back from the wcup team (nor the level designers) which seems quite bad as you might understand. Me as a player don't have any other option than give the negative feedback here if i ever want to play better levels, since if i joined the team myself i would be ineligible to participate.

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by ArZeNiK » 25 Nov 2020, 07:31

imo specter is being a bit too passive aggressive. and yes constructive criticism is good if you want changes instead of just making people feel bad (this statement also requires me to say sorry for only senselessly bashing the level selector team so far instead of forming the aforementioned constructive criticism)
it is obvious that you cannot cater to the whole elma community no matter how you choose your levels, and i don't think we should expect the selectors' criteria to change at all, given that all levels received both positive and negative feedback at the same time in a somewhat balanced manner (perhaps the negative side was a bit louder as to make it seem like they are the majority)
in fact, looking back at the older levels, it seems like we've soon gone full circle and the event choices make more sense in the big picture as they did individually back when they appeared. undeniably, there is quite a variety of levs (short, long, superlong, hoyl, multistyle, rng-trick, gimmicky, ff-pipe), the lack of which provoked my early negative reactions towards this cup. feels better now, although im still missing the "apple harvest" type lev. as for the quality of pre-existing lev besides their variety, i cannot make up any valuable constructive criticism or polite reasoning except for "this lev is unfit for a world cup" so i will kindly shut my mouth, unlike certain people
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by Orcc » 25 Nov 2020, 13:21

Competition: How many mans do you think will finish WCup810? My guess is 3.

Analogy: Let's say it takes about 10 mins to get to the end of the level. If a kuski höyls three hours every day and makes it there with every run he gets 7 * 3 * 6 = a bit over 100 tries at it. Now I think nobadi makes it that far with every try and probably not many have the time and guts to höyl for over 20 hours, so 100 tries is probably very high overestimation. Anyway in the end one does not have very many shots at attempting to finish the mrDJ's lair part and it's fakcing hard too, so that's why I say 3 mans will do it.
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by specter2 » 25 Nov 2020, 13:41

1

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by AndrY » 25 Nov 2020, 14:09

2: adi and kazan
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by abruzzi » 25 Nov 2020, 18:33

6 ppl will finish and i can tell all nicks but won't. btw perfect lev mr sierra!
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by ROKKEBOL » 26 Nov 2020, 06:41

0
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by danitah » 28 Nov 2020, 15:22

specter2 wrote:
24 Nov 2020, 19:18
it doesn't make sense to have a very easy pipe in the beginning with several apples whereas a hard one a lot later only has one apple. I think the results will reveal these kinds of flaws if it's otherwise hard to see.
As a member of the designer team I want to avoid making too specific comments about levels, especially while they are ongoing, but I'll make some general statements:
- A lot of apples in the beginning makes sense even if the pipe is easy, because it gives extra motivation to less skilled players to improve their PRs.
- If there's a hard fairly far into the lev with a few apples, I'd think most players who are able to get there would also be skilled enough to get past it, so it gives motivation to get a better run so you can get out of the tie with other players.

It's a very thematic level of course, even ignoring that I don't think the apple density is an issue as it is. There's just one area where it might be a small issue, but I don't see the harm of a relatively big amount of players getting into a tie.

I personally think wcup benefits from having a few unconventional levels. That doesn't mean we pick levels for the sake of being unconventional, they also need to have good qualities.

I don't think every wcup needs a pipe etc to be a "proper" wcup. And you can all be assured we didn't pick this lev "just because we needed a pipe" :) There might be some "standard" lev types we don't have in the end, and that's ok imo. It will easily be too forced if we tried putting in a bunch of specific types of levs just because it's tradition and people expect them, if we don't get good enough levs of those types.

I also think it's the wrong approach to try to please everyone, it would exclude any kind of risk taking when picking levs. I think there's proof of this when you look at specific criticism made throughout the cup, since they are often opposite of the kind of criticisms we got at different points in the cup. If we'd try to take in all criticism and retroactively react to each of them it would make the levs extremely bland. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm not trying to say that any criticism we have received is not valid, or that there's nothing we could have done better.

It's ok to dislike any lev. All i'll say is, try to consider that other people have a different perspective than you. If you like a lev, you won't convince anyone who dislikes it that it's good. If you dislike it, you won't convince anyone who likes it that it's bad etc.

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by SveinR » 29 Nov 2020, 15:05

I would just like to say I was unsure about this level at first, but now I think it's just brilliant and perfectly suited for a World Cup :)

It could of course be fun to instead have a "normal pipe" where lots of ppl could finish and it would all be about hoyling best time, but as it is now I think this is more reminiscent of how people felt during wcup317 or wcup414 - two pipes that, at the time, were incredibly difficult for most kuskis and the challenge was all about "how far can you get?" - and maybe, just maybe, the best pipers in the world could finish. With the vastly increased skill level the past 20 years, this current level is what it takes to produce a similar situation. And the thematic qualities of it just adds to the epicness 8)

It also turns out that the level is very fun to cruise through, even though it is incredibly frustrating to die towards making a new best result - but it's also really exhilarating every time you get to a new spot, with the heart racing... :D

I wish I had more time to play this really...
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by kuchitsu » 30 Nov 2020, 12:24

I see the team really listened to people's feedback and tried to pick the best lev possible this time. :beer:

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by Orcc » 30 Nov 2020, 12:37

Well at least we took a turn for the better again.

WCup811.lev: What fps should I use? Max or 30 or something in between? Is there a possibility to save time with wheelpop? Should I get more or less speed at turn? Which style do I pick, more direct for speed or more bumpy for a better angle? Am I missing something? Have I höyled the lev enough?

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by Ruben » 1 Dec 2020, 00:55

811 best lev ever, ez GAA.
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by Igge » 1 Dec 2020, 09:43

I really loved WC810. It was the first time in a long time I felt some adrenaline and wonder from elma, like a noob that was just about to finish lab pro or headbanger for the first time. The theme was the icing on the cake, and how the variance and types of pipes tied into it was clearly there despite not having read Sierra's motivation. Also fun to have a level that's more about how far you can get rather than how much you can hoyl a great time. 10/10 epic level

As for other levs, the thing that has been a bit lackluster for me is the lack of styles and wow-moments. Ramone's garvity lev was impressive in that sense - I thought I had a nice style but turns out there was way better ones in such a straight-forward level.
But many other ones felt pretty flat and one-stylish. And seeing as we already have 4x 1week-breaks, there's no need for that many one-route hoylas (803, 805, 807, 811; and tbh even including 802 & 809). A few of those sprinkled between long ones would be fine, but they don't need to make up half of the levs.

I appreciate the attempt of having a great variance in styles in all levels, so that the WCup truly tests all skillsets of elma. And to some extent I can tell that this was the attempt this cup, but it also seems it has fallen a bit flat. No Uphill, No AH, no Speedloop, very few multistyle levs, etc. Even being bad at those myself I still miss that variance.


That being said, I still want to give major props to the people who organize this cup. I know how stressful it can be to juggle a cup with RL etc, especially a 4-month one. Also there's a lot of coding etc in the background to make it all work. Huge thanks to all of you - without you there would be NO levels and NO wcup - and I think it's important that everyone remembers that.

And idk, maybe I'm just salty that my levels never get picked for wc :(
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by Kopaka » 1 Dec 2020, 12:01

wcup812 igge lev or riot

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by Labs » 1 Dec 2020, 14:55

Kopaka wrote:
1 Dec 2020, 12:01
wcup812 igge lev or riot
yes pls!
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by Orcc » 1 Dec 2020, 17:18

No, zebra
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by Igge » 2 Dec 2020, 08:28

Disclaimer: This year my levels were actually bad)

But I still would have loved to see what this lev could have been in a wc setting (from prec wc)

https://elma.online/r/my5hbid0gu

Many thanks zweq for playing tho)
tho ez direct apple and back through same hole)
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by Bludek » 14 Dec 2020, 13:13

I've read through some interviews and I stumbled upon this pic https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/ ... nknown.png of prev verison of WCUp808 by danitah. Why did all the cool stuff and pics at the bottom get removed, Ram? :(
I wanna cruise through old version, looks dope.
<-nabbed

Anyway, max gratz to Kaz!! Looking forward to summary/final word by organizers.
Last edited by Bludek on 14 Dec 2020, 14:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by pawq » 14 Dec 2020, 14:09

What do you mean? The left version was in WCup :thinking:

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by Bludek » 14 Dec 2020, 14:27

I dun goofed :blushes: :roll: nvm
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by zebra » 22 Dec 2020, 21:54

Here is my World Cup 8 feedback:

WCup801.lev: Piece of Cup by Ramone
- This level was good-looking already by first sight. I was surprised that the first level was this long and quite hard. I was waiting a 20-sec höylä level. Anyway, the level was good for first event. I wasn't surprised that it was Ramone's level. The bounce style was obvious but too hard, I couldn't make the bounce even once.

WCup802.lev: Spike Hyzer by Kopaka
- This was the best level of the cup! Amazing flow! I spent lots of time (maybe an hour or two) finding the best route and style. It was pleasant. Sadly there was a lame bounce in the end of the level. Of course I didn't find it but on the other hand that allowed me to höyl the easier and more convenient style.

WCup803.lev: Mawakamaa by roope
- The level looked very rough but it was still quite ok. It's funny that in Elma you don't really need to polish the level for it to be nice to drive. But I think this level was mainly chosen to world cup in memory of Mawane, which is of course very fine act to do. Sadly this level was also ruined by a lucky bounce. Come on, already 3rd bounce level in a row... grr...

WCup804.lev: City Ruins by insguy
- What a great cup level! Many routes and interesting styles. The level was quite hard but I enjoyed it. Didn't find the best style though. The world cup should have had more of these kind of levels.

WCup805.lev: sSsSs by Hosp
- Heh, I only now read the level name first time when I wrote it here... Anyway, I didn't like this level at all. It only consisted of some awkward bounces and hard end. No style finding was really needed which means to me that the level was boring.

WCup806.lev: Formula 22 by Ramone
- I was afraid of Ramone's gravity level already before the cup start. After WCup801 I thought that we were spared of that but oh no, here it came! Anyway, in this level there was a significant fun factor which actually made this quite fun to play. Sadly I didn't had time and inspiration to search for pro styles. I was sure there was one, but also thought that it would be too hard for me. I was correct when I saw the results, but I was also surprised by the magnitude of styles! This was really the first time that I was surprised by the winning style during this cup and especially by the amount of styles that this level provided. Amazingly well designed level. Thanks, Ramone!

WCup807.lev: Emerald Ground by Blaztek
- I didn't like the idea of having such a short "battle level" as a cup level. Also it seemed that it would need two insanely hard tricks to finish with a good time. I thought a bounce from left wall would be fastest and didn't bother to höyl this level very much. Luckily this time I was wrong and this wasn't a bounce level after all. But having so many short levels already in this cup made me think that the rest of the levels have to be very long or this isn't really a serious cup.

WCup808.lev: Nowhere Now Here by danitah
- The level looked like a throw-up. Just random polygons scattered everywhere. I didn't like this level at all. There was no pleasant driving, just struggle trying to survive between the random polygons. Also now suddenly there was this kind of overly long level which (I think) wasn't enjoyable for most players, at least not for me. The level was way too hard for a noob like me who has only played this game for 20 years.

WCup809.lev: Straw and Fantasy Shoe by umiz
- The level looked just like normal umiz battle level. This of course just tells how good umiz battles normally are. Anyway this level as a cup level turned out to be a bit of a struggle with pixel-apples and hard styles because the best style was quite obvious but just insanely hard.

WCup810.lev: Nine Circles of Pipe Hell by Sierra:
- What an epic level! Enchanting and unique. This shows the real World Cup attitude! Although I'm not good at these kind of endurance pipes, this really made this cup a World Cup. adi's victory was not a surprise but I was still surprised by his pipe skills.

WCup811.lev: vvarm up by Zweq
- Very intelligent level. Interesting to hyöl. I liked this! World Cup should have more these kind of special levels.

WCup812.lev: What Is Your Code? By jblaze
- I liked this level and thought I had found the best style but no, I had wrong style in all 3 places. So I didn't succeed either in this level. Apart from the style finding this was quite easy level, maybe even too easy? But anyway the cup was kind of over already. Good level to fade out.

Overall:
- The cup was interesting battle between two teams and two great players. Thanks Kazan [SpEF] and adi [MiE] for great replays and great competition.
- There were too many bounce levels. Some of the bounce levels could have been replaced by longer levels / multistyle levels / some special events. And I was expecting a roller coaster, why did you left it out?
- There were too easy levels in the beginning of the cup. After 7 first events I really thought that when will the "real" levels come? Is this a noob cup or a world cup? All those easy levels with bounce shortcuts were a bit boring. But luckily there were harder and more special levels in the end of the cup (810, 811) which really made this feel like a World Cup.
- I didn't do well even if I really tried in all events (played at least one hour in each event :D). Maybe it's time for me to admit that I'm not a good player anymore and won't probably participate in future cups.
- The web site was a bit messy but when I finally found interviews, they were nice to read.
- Thanks to everybody who were organizing this cup!
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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by specter2 » 23 Dec 2020, 09:20

WCup801.lev: Piece of Cup by Ramone
pixel trick, random bounce, mongo turn and terrible flower — most likely the worst level of the cup

WCup802.lev: Spike Hyzer by Kopaka
nice lev ruined by fps bounce

WCup803.lev: Mawakamaa by roope
basic and decent

WCup804.lev: City Ruins by insguy
hard to judge this lev since i only have a vague memory of it, most likely because didn't play it much; i didn't find it enjoyable

WCup805.lev: sSsSs by Hosp
riddled with all kinds of weird bounces and pushes, really annoying

WCup806.lev: Formula 22 by Ramone
nice lev

WCup807.lev: Emerald Ground by Blaztek
a bit boring lev and annoying flower

WCup808.lev: Nowhere Now Here by danitah
nice lev ruined by start (pixel apple) and end (terrible flower)

WCup809.lev: Straw and Fantasy Shoe by umiz
tht × pa = ew (where tht = too hard tricks, pa = pixel apple)

WCup810.lev: Nine Circles of Pipe Hell by Sierra:
too long and inconsistent

WCup811.lev: vvarm up by Zweq
interesting level ruined by the nature of the game abusing bugs, pops, fps tuning, keyscripting.. you name it

WCup812.lev: What Is Your Code? By jblaze
my gas-finger hurts, yawn

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by tej » 23 Dec 2020, 17:50

I have no idea who you actually are and your comments are always annoying.
specter2 wrote:
23 Dec 2020, 09:20

WCup810.lev: Nine Circles of Pipe Hell by Sierra:
too long and inconsistent
But this... this is too stupid to not comment on.

It's inconsistent. HAHAHAHAHA

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by specter2 » 23 Dec 2020, 17:58

geez, what's so funny?

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by pawq » 23 Dec 2020, 21:02

tej wrote:
23 Dec 2020, 17:50
I have no idea who you actually are and your comments are always annoying.
just another ville_j phantom

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9162&p=267984#p267984

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by tej » 24 Dec 2020, 00:10

specter2 wrote:
23 Dec 2020, 17:58
geez, what's so funny?
It's a level about travelling through different thematic sections, it's not inconsistent, it transcends consistency.
pawq wrote:
23 Dec 2020, 21:02
tej wrote:
23 Dec 2020, 17:50
I have no idea who you actually are and your comments are always annoying.
just another ville_j phantom

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=9162&p=267984#p267984
No wonder. (No offense to ville_j, our personalities obviously cause friction.)

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by specter2 » 24 Dec 2020, 10:33

tej wrote:
24 Dec 2020, 00:10
It's a level about travelling through different thematic sections, it's not inconsistent, it transcends consistency.
i understand the theme, but a level having a theme or a concept doesn't automatically mean it's enjoyable for everyone or the playability is good. not everyone likes all the art films, get it?

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by pawq » 24 Dec 2020, 14:11

It's not about liking it or nat, it's that calling it inconsistent just seems strange. Given that it's a long level that is likely to get boring at least to some extent when holing for hours, I think "inconsistency" should be desirable, no? :shrug: I think "varied" is more fitting

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by tej » 25 Dec 2020, 00:48

specter2 wrote:
24 Dec 2020, 10:33
tej wrote:
24 Dec 2020, 00:10
It's a level about travelling through different thematic sections, it's not inconsistent, it transcends consistency.
i understand the theme, but a level having a theme or a concept doesn't automatically mean it's enjoyable for everyone or the playability is good. not everyone likes all the art films, get it?
I didn't say a theme meant everyone would automatically enjoy it. I didn't say that a theme meant the playability is good. I said it wasn't inconsistent. If you understand the theme, then you understand it's not inconsistent, given that every section differs in ways that suit the sectional title in an obvious and consistent way.

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Re: World Cup 8 announcement

Post by specter2 » 25 Dec 2020, 08:40

a painting can be too red for someone even if the whole point of the artist was to paint a pure red painting; if the pipe was more consistent it would've been nicer experience to play

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