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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 14:59 
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Kuski

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Hi!

Trailer

now that saveload is public i've decided to organize a saveload cup for all peoples. I think this might be little bit controversial so this is the topic for trailer i made and some discussion about the cup.

What are peoples general opinions? should for example both hourglass and smibus saveload be allowed? smibus saveload is not as advanced and you need to make the runs in single session. Hourglass you can use as many saves as you want and go back, but its also not working well for everyone and doesnt support numpad. Hourglass is detectable too so in theory it would be possible to only allow smibus patch but that would mean spreading it even more than now (although probably most people have it now anyway). Also if using hourglass you can share saves, so obviously disallowed is for example to drive 98% of the level and then give the save to your team mate and let him make almost identical time.

what about saveload cup in general? is it ok to organize such a cup? will it promote cheating?


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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 15:30 
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Sounds fun. I think one way to make sure people don't cheat in real levels is to give them a legal way to cheat, and still keep it fun; Kinda like legal graffiti walls - I know many people who only paint on legal ones, but would never do it illegally. A cup or levpack or whatever that allows SL could be a very nice outlet for those who really crave some cheating.

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 15:41 
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Jappe wrote:
will it promote cheating?
but
Igge wrote:
one way to make sure people don't cheat in real levels is to give them a legal way to cheat

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Last edited by pawq on 12 Jul 2011, 16:55, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 15:49 
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Pawq wrote:
Jappe wrote:
it will promote cheating
but
Igge wrote:
people can not cheat in real levels if they have a legal way to cheat

Please don't change the text in a quote. Especially when the thing you change it to means something completely different. What I said was "People might not want to cheat in real levels if they have a legal way to do it", not "people can't cheat in real levels ~"

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 15:57 
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Pawq wrote:
I don't know what quote is

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 16:39 
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Jappe wrote:
so obviously disallowed is for example to drive 98% of the level and then give the save to your team mate and let him make almost identical time.
How do you plan to restrict that by rules? Merge recs and look at silhouette?

S/L cup, as any other TAS-competition, is fun. But currently it's not possible in elma on decent level.
How to
1). judge recs driven with more advanced tools, like mila's patch to get bounce of any speed?
2). determine bug-bounces at all?
3). determine is some rec theoretically drivable at all? The most primitive case - cut some frames off the rec file.

The only way to organize nice elma TAS-competition I see is to develop online version of S/L elma with hourglass features. Like, all your runs are saved on server, only you may continue playing any of them. And no spoiling times shit of course.

UPD: forgot to mention, trailer is really awesome :roll:

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Last edited by Ves on 14 Jul 2011, 09:38, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 16:54 
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Igge i changed it only slightly in meaning, you said that allowing people to "cheat legally" is a way to make sure that they won't cheat illegally, i said that it's not really making sure, only people might choose not to cheat illegally if they have a legal way. Original statements were the closest posts above, so it doesn't really matter... I just wanted to put together the two parts, quoting and my opinion. So:

I think it is kind of promoting cheating, at least encouraging people to do so. When I saw this, I for a short while was considering dling some tools to participate. Only a short while, though others might actually get their hands on cheat tools, therefore spreading s/l even further. However, as Igge nicely explained, it may also work the other way around. It is known that forbidden fruit tastes better and once we legalise something, its use may decrease. There is a chance that such a situation will take place here. People may choose to participate in the cup and fulfill their need to cheat, hence stopping to cheat in real levels/contests. Nevertheless, the cup will end in some time and by the time it ends even more people than now will posses s/l. The cup will also no longer satisfy their hunger for using tools. That's why so far I'm against organising such a cup and instead for hunting those who cheat currently and trying to discourage people from cheating.

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 17:36 
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S/L Cup is pointless unless there's a proper official SL tool. In Smibu's SL you can't even change keys for saving/loading and Hourglass makes the elma physics a bit weird imho.

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 17:48 
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Ves wrote:
3). determine is some rec theoretically drivable at all? The most primitive case - cut some frames off the rec file.

anticheat tools are accesible by cup holder


if it goes about the cup i dunno, there will be always some Ramones SHOUTING!!!1 it's not a CUP, it SHOUDNT be held!!1 YOU CHEATERS!!!1, what in turn might discourage holders ans players

in my opinion it is very sweet idea, would definitely be at least very exciting to follow the results, impsy styles and drives, one is sure, the beauty of those in comparison to normal cups would be like comparing watching premier league and polish 3rd league

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 19:43 
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Ves wrote:
The only way to organize nice elma TAS-competition I see is to develop online version of S/L elma with hourglass features. Like, all your runs are saved on server, only you may continue playing any of them. And no spoiling times shit of course.

If such a project was to be started, the obviously more profitable way is to create a new eol, hermetic and totally cheat-proof.

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 20:43 
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If I was to play a sl cup, I would only play it if ONLY Smibus SL was to be allowed. Ez detectable if other tools are used, therefor also making it fair since everyone uses same tool.

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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 21:21 
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Björn wrote:
If I was to play a sl cup, I would only play it if ONLY Smibus SL was to be allowed. Ez detectable if other tools are used, therefor also making it fair since everyone uses same tool.

Why not use hourglass yourself then? Smibu's sl has some really annoying drawbacks - inability to exit elma and be able to finish the rest of the ride later, only 1 saveslot (really sucks for testing various styles) and no way to remap save/load buttons (what if i use lshift for turn, like Madness?). Also it's frustrating to know that one wrong keypress can ruin everything, be it a savebutton or escape. And it's not crash-proof, while in hourglass you don't lose any progress even if it crashes (which never happened to me by the way).

Maybe it would be better to postpone the cup for later until hourglass becomes more stable - it is currently being actively improved with each week, or until someone improves smibu's sl (which will effectively just bring it close to hourglass functionwise).


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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 22:06 
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milagros wrote:
Pawq wrote:
I don't know what quote is

but
Jappe wrote:

is LOL


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PostPosted: 12 Jul 2011, 22:44 
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trailer is max yeah)

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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2011, 00:12 
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Pawq wrote:
Igge i changed it only slightly in meaning, you said that allowing people to "cheat legally" is a way to make sure that they won't cheat illegally, i said that it's not really making sure, only people might choose not to cheat illegally if they have a legal way.
Wait, what the fuck? It's the exact opposite! I said people might now want to cheat, you said they can't. What the fuck are you talking about?

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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2011, 00:22 
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I'd probably play this if everyone's recs weren't glitched bounces. I say just do it using Saveload and no hourglass to get quality recs but nothing rediculous.

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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2011, 08:50 
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anpdad wrote:
Björn wrote:
If I was to play a sl cup, I would only play it if ONLY Smibus SL was to be allowed. Ez detectable if other tools are used, therefor also making it fair since everyone uses same tool.

Why not use hourglass yourself then? Smibu's sl has some really annoying drawbacks - inability to exit elma and be able to finish the rest of the ride later, only 1 saveslot (really sucks for testing various styles) and no way to remap save/load buttons (what if i use lshift for turn, like Madness?). Also it's frustrating to know that one wrong keypress can ruin everything, be it a savebutton or escape. And it's not crash-proof, while in hourglass you don't lose any progress even if it crashes (which never happened to me by the way).

Maybe it would be better to postpone the cup for later until hourglass becomes more stable - it is currently being actively improved with each week, or until someone improves smibu's sl (which will effectively just bring it close to hourglass functionwise).


more advanced smibu's SL would be mega cool :D

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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2011, 09:48 
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your cheaters!

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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2011, 11:58 
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Just two words about the trailer...

COOLEST EVER

seriously, magnificent xD

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PostPosted: 13 Jul 2011, 15:39 
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anpdad wrote:
Björn wrote:
If I was to play a sl cup, I would only play it if ONLY Smibus SL was to be allowed. Ez detectable if other tools are used, therefor also making it fair since everyone uses same tool.

Why not use hourglass yourself then? Smibu's sl has some really annoying drawbacks - inability to exit elma and be able to finish the rest of the ride later, only 1 saveslot (really sucks for testing various styles) and no way to remap save/load buttons (what if i use lshift for turn, like Madness?). Also it's frustrating to know that one wrong keypress can ruin everything, be it a savebutton or escape. And it's not crash-proof, while in hourglass you don't lose any progress even if it crashes (which never happened to me by the way).

Maybe it would be better to postpone the cup for later until hourglass becomes more stable - it is currently being actively improved with each week, or until someone improves smibu's sl (which will effectively just bring it close to hourglass functionwise).


I use left shift as alo key, with smibu's sl it was really impsy for me to do some hard tricks like hifly brutal etc... wouldnt play such a cup with current version of smibu sl for sure. Nice post btw, anp knows teh shit)

But about the video, why have you used my win replay from Mastercup3, 6th event (had to brighten the screen preety much to see it tho)? Nice if you liked it maybe, but using it for promoting a saveload cup is a little bit embarassing for me, hope no subtext there or smth you know :roll:

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2011, 00:17 
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I don't even see a rec in this video. what are you guys talking about?

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2011, 02:37 
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is like the trailer of the trailer or jappe was very bored

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2011, 03:06 
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Mielz wrote:
But about the video, why have you used my win replay from Mastercup3, 6th event

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2011, 07:32 
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I thought it was my rec there for a minute, then realized it was Mielz one.

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2011, 14:08 
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Last part of my post wasn't meant to be serious :mrgreen:

Memphis wrote:
I don't even see a rec in this video. what are you guys talking about?


As I said, you need to brighten your screen really much if it is rather dark, else you won't see anything

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2011, 16:06 
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Oh, I see it now. Gamma was too low before. Thanks Mielz.

Haha, trailer of a trailer, classic.

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2011, 16:11 
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I saw it directly when watching.

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2011, 17:17 
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Hosp wrote:
I saw it directly when watching.


You are a master of seeing.

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2011, 18:53 
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Yes ))

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PostPosted: 14 Jul 2011, 19:31 
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Kopaka wrote:
Hosp wrote:
I saw it directly when watching.


You are a master of seeing.

i saw it too :roll:

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PostPosted: 15 Jul 2011, 01:39 
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Jappe wrote:
if people want to be able to use hourglass it is vital that there are some kinds of instructions how to use it so it wont crash every 10 loads. So if you want to be able to use it give some instructions here or in priv, i heard anpdad figured it out at least so this post is mainly towards him. i also sent priv to smibu asking for another version with different save and load keys so people using left/right shift could use that as well


I can't get hourglass to even start anymore :D Crashed my whole computer last i tried.

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