Discuss the purpose of EOL

niN · Post by **niN** » 11 Mar 2010, 00:02

Something has been on my mind for a long time, but I did not bother figuring it out until just now. First of all I would like to apologize for not speaking my mind earlier when much (unnecessary?) work could be prevented.

I recently learned that the EOL website will gather all (finished) runs. This means every time you finish will be listed in a table on the EOL website. The only exceptions are cup levels if the cup author has selected some hidden mode (or something like that I think?). But other external contests like OLP, ALP, Skintatious, Kopasite will be included in a table on the EOL website.

I do not like this at all. It will completely kill all other websites and contests because everybody will play EOL, and who will bother uploading a record to a site when your time is already listed in the EOL website with every other finished time on that level? I mean websites like Kopasite, the ALP recordtable (MopoCorner), OLP recordtable, the internal recordtables, skintatious; they will all slowly die because nobody wants multiple recordtables on diffrent places!

I was hoping the idea of EOL would be to replace #battle and not replace the entire elma scene, because one of my biggest elma passions is creating websites and make statistics for other users to enjoy. Why don't we just save the battled times/levels to the EOL website? I do honestly think it's quite daft to stretch the website so much that it will replace everything.

Don't get me wrong here, I really appreciate the work the crew has put into making EOL, but I do not want EOL to have a monopoly on everything... When all times are stored in the website what can we webmanagers compete with? Additional statistics? nah, without a complete recordtable it will all be useless. Rather than just complaining I would like to contribute with some solutions:

1) Make some RSS feed so that other websites can use the info the EOL website uses, thus will make the recordtables identical. This can however be a problem for non automated websites and it will take away recordtables (#) unless you do some pro guru coding

2) Make a feature to block a level pattern. For example admins have rights to block all times from a level pattern (e.g. niN???.lev) and users can apply for blockage.

3 - my personal favourite - ) Keep the EOL site about Battles. Only share stats and times from battled levels. In other word, use EOL as a replacement for #battle.

Please discuss, because everyone who feels like I do need to say something before it's too late! Kopaka asked me to create this topic because he wanted to know what the scene thought. This is important to me at least! I want to keep making websites!

Bismuth · Post by **Bismuth** » 11 Mar 2010, 00:25

Well, personally, I can't keep up with 800 sites of levels and stuff, but I do understand how nice it can feel administrating your site with your levels and tables. I see your point of view niN, but as far as I am concerned, EOL is great.

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 11 Mar 2010, 00:52

I fully agree here with niN. And if I had known all the features and detailed information about EOL, I probably would have said something earlier.

EOL release seems to be just around the corner, so what happens to all these on-going cups (lovely cup, talvi cup, rambo cup)? People will need to play the cup levels outside EOL not to make their times/recs public? If that's the case, it really sucks. I generally don't like the idea that if you want to make a cup, it has to be run through EOL to make it "hidden", I guess you all know what I mean. Better way would be like this: If you want to make something public, run it through EOL (i.e. start a battle, cup whatever). The default for externals would be "hidden" and no data sent to EOL server. And if you have just made a new fresh le.. WWOOOPPSSS it's already on EOL site and has top-10 times!

How about all the future contests? For those who only play levels this system is very suitable: no need to register here, there and everywhere, times updating automatically and so on... and I guess for many designers EOL site will be the dream-come-true. But as niN said, some people (including me) enjoy making own stuff. For the most of the battle levels EOL site will be great, but some levels just deserve more and the author should have a right to decide. I mean like, Kopasite is such a great site, but I have not put my levels there and there's a reason to it. I don't know if you understand how I'm feeling about this, but I can't find better words.

I already suggested that no data about externals would be sent without a request of a user, and I think it would be the best. And like niN said, ability to block certain lev patterns should also be included (so that no user can secretly upload a cup lev and then see what times other people get). Alternatively, giving a database access to levpack/cup etc. authors to use would be good too (but it wouldn't work on all occasions)

I don't know how much you have thought about all this when making EOL. And I still don't know the features and details of it so please don't flame me if I got something wrong. I hope too that this raises discussion and many opinions are heard (not reacted like "ye ya but this is the way it is whatever you say..").

Xiphias · Post by **Xiphias** » 11 Mar 2010, 00:54

lol don't get afraid now

zebra · Post by **zebra** » 11 Mar 2010, 07:21

I think EOL is very great thing, and the external/cup thing is maybe the best feature (along with battles of course). No more hundreds of different level sites around internet where you have to e-mail your rec and lev and so on. Just drive your time in EOL and that's it. Cups etc can still have their own website: there is still need for a place where you can find detailed information of the cup, maybe interviews, level name guessing stuff and so on. Only the results don't have to be there, only links to EOL are enough. I see EOL as a dream come true in the sense that I don't have to update times manually anymore

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 11 Mar 2010, 08:31

I think EOL will be great for me, i love recordtables and it'll certainly make things easier (plus stats! STATS!)

Another fault with EOL:

If i want to release my levelpacks (lets us Lvchrt as an example,) but they are battled. If i upload Lvchrt48 and later decide i don't want it in the final pack, it's tough titties for me, It's already there.

Question: is there an option to upload a "remix" level... ie i swap start and flower in Lvchrt48, can i click some box "remix of: (Insert levelfile here)" And have it as like... a sublevel on the EOL site? i mean like this:

- Packs
- ALP
- OLP
- Blabla
- Blabla
- LVChrt (Opened)

- LVCHrt01.lev
- LVChrt02.lev
- Blabla.lev
- LVChrt48.lev
- LVChrt48.lev Remix one.
- LVChrt49.lev

- LXP
- MB
- Tube
- Uhsep

and so on.

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 11 Mar 2010, 09:25

For cups the solution would be this; make results hidden until the deadline has passed.
For levelpack levels I would prefer zebra's solution; there's some charm lost though, I admit.

niN · Post by **niN** » 11 Mar 2010, 09:44

I never said EOL was bad and we need to ban it. But I think that for us webdesigners who are not a part of making EOL, it will completely ruin our chances of creating another website with our own recordtables. I already said this is one of the things I enjoy the most. I'm not necessarily asking to change the way of EOL and only use it as a replacement for #Battle (although I would prefer that the most...), but at least give designers an opportunity to block times on their own levels. It's a matter of copyright and legimity if you should be dramatic really.

[23:43] <Jappe2> niN is elma conservative
[23:43] <Jappe2> agaisnt teh progress

Just to clear some things up yet again, this is not the case. I would love for more players to join the scene, but I don't want 5 handpicked people with monopoly on elma stats and publishing times.

Bludek · Post by **Bludek** » 11 Mar 2010, 10:36

I don't know all teh features around EOL, but this one looks max to me. I understand you, niN, but I like automatic and ez uploading. It is cool that all the levs and times will be gathered on one site.

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 11 Mar 2010, 12:48

EOL surely will change the style of other websites, but I think everyone will get used to the new system rather quickly and find that it's more convenient to have most results on a single website, rather than scattered around several ones. niN's suggestion 1 seems like a reasonable compromise. The only problem might be .recs. Does EOL automatically save WR rec files (external) on the site?

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 11 Mar 2010, 13:15

Writing in the forums is always sach painful when you are actually trying to achieve something.

1. Externals are automatically public, why?
2. Contests/level packs can't be started as hidden? Why?
3. Should I "release" my levels as a cup through EOL, (though I don't want them to have fuck to do with EOL site)with each event's deadline in the year 3000 not to make my levs recs public and times excluded from the EOL site?
4. Do you understand how stupid that sounds? Yes?
5. Things wanted in EOL site should be started through EOL, not vice-versa, yes?
6. Why shouldn't people be able to "ban" their levels from EOL?
7. Is EOL great? Yes?
8. But it does seem to have flaws? Yes?
9. Because you really didn't think things through before making it?

klisse · Post by **klisse** » 11 Mar 2010, 13:16

niN wrote: but at least give designers an opportunity to block times on their own levels. It's a matter of copyright and legimity if you should be dramatic really.

Ez start new cup when releasing new levelpack with end time like 1. january 2033, problem fixed?

Mawane · Post by **Mawane** » 11 Mar 2010, 13:45

klisse wrote:
niN wrote: but at least give designers an opportunity to block times on their own levels. It's a matter of copyright and legimity if you should be dramatic really.
Ez start new cup when releasing new levelpack with end time like 1. january 2033, problem fixed?

then when event finishes, vj notices that EOL times are better than on his site

zworqy · Post by **zworqy** » 11 Mar 2010, 13:49

Ville_J wrote:Writing in the forums is always sach painful when you are actually trying to achieve something.

1. Externals are automatically public, why?
2. Contests/level packs can't be started as hidden? Why?
3. Should I "release" my levels as a cup through EOL, (though I don't want them to have fuck to do with EOL site)with each event's deadline in the year 3000 not to make my levs recs public and times excluded from the EOL site?
4. Do you understand how stupid that sounds? Yes?
5. Things wanted in EOL site should be started through EOL, not vice-versa, yes?
6. Why shouldn't people be able to "ban" their levels from EOL?
7. Is EOL great? Yes?
8. But it does seem to have flaws? Yes?
9. Because you really didn't think things through before making it?

1. mila/Kopa/whoever wanted huge fucking database of levels?
2. Not sure what you mean with "hidden", but but cup levels/times/recs are always hidden, only results and winner rec will be published automatically.
3,4. There's not much you can do, but as I said, only winner recs from battles/cups are uploaded at least. You need permission to get (temporary) rights to start a cup anyway.
5. Ýes?
6. It's just levels ffs.
7. Very.
8. Nothing is perfect.
9. I didn't really make it, but I think it's fairly well thought out.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 11 Mar 2010, 14:03

Okay to make things clear I will try to explain exactly how it works.

Every run you drive in EOL is saved to the database with info about time, did you die/esc/finish, number of volts, Max Speed, apples, date ect. So this means it's theoretically possible to make any kind of stats imaginable. But ofcourse just because it's saved in the database doesn't mean it's shown anywhere.

Level Packs
Let's take external level packs first, and look at how results from those are shown as it is now.

In game
Things in game are done by mila and will not be changed. When you drive a time in an external it will be shown in F7 finished times list like it is in belma. A new thing is a best times list for the level you are currently in which shows top10 times in that level. This won't hurt anything as it's just a quick way to see times in the level you currently playing without going to any website.

On site
A time driven in an external is shown here http://elmaonline.moposite.com/?s=stats which is basically the same as F7 list so that won't change anything as I see it.

They will also be shown on the players kuskipage under "Latest Times" like here http://elmaonline.moposite.com/?s=players&k=Kopaka which is basically same as F7 again so that won't change anything either.

They will only be shown on levelpack page http://elmaonline.moposite.com/?s=stats&p=levelpack if you choose to add your levels as a levelpack yourself.

The last place it will be shown is on the externals page http://elmaonline.moposite.com/?s=stats&p=level where you can search all externals and find the level which is shown like this http://elmaonline.moposite.com/?s=stats&p=level&l=1876 It will not be shown anywhere else, so I think we can agree that this page is the only one that could do any harm to other websites and non EOL contests. Right?

Personally I don't consider that page to be something that could really harm other websites with levelpacks as levels will just be listed there amongst the millions of other levels played. So I wouldn't consider having a record there on some random level amongst all those other levels to be prestigious and if I made a good time I would still want to upload/send it to the another site that has the records for that levelpack along with kinglist and other stuff like that, so that my time would actually be noticed.

That being said, if people really doesn't like this we can do something about it, the last thing I would like to happen is half the scene not playing online all the time because of some shit. As I said to nin in irc and he wrote in first post I see two things we can do, make an rss feed so sitemakers and get stats from eol site on their own site, and make it possible to hide certain levels from the externals page by asking me. Both pretty simple things, and if done I see no problems for external level packs.

(will write something about cups and that later today)

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 11 Mar 2010, 14:21

Kopaka wrote: In game
Things in game are done by mila and will not be changed. When you drive a time in an external it will be shown in F7 finished times list like it is in belma. A new thing is a best times list for the level you are currently in which shows top10 times in that level. This won't hurt anything as it's just a quick way to see times in the level you currently playing without going to any website.

:OO awesome

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 11 Mar 2010, 14:22

zworqy wrote: 1. mila/Kopa/whoever wanted huge fucking database of levels?
2. Not sure what you mean with "hidden", but but cup levels/times/recs are always hidden, only results and winner rec will be published automatically.
3,4. There's not much you can do, but as I said, only winner recs from battles/cups are uploaded at least. You need permission to get (temporary) rights to start a cup anyway.
5. Ýes?
6. It's just levels ffs.
7. Very.
8. Nothing is perfect.
9. I didn't really make it, but I think it's fairly well thought out.

2. My point is: I start a cup and no, I don't want it to have anything to do with EOL site. Do you understand what problem there is going to be?

3,4. Yeah maybe not anymore, but it could have been done differently. Whoever decided that levpacks/contests/everything is shared recs I ask: why?

5. Yes I like the way you also say it. But EOL doesn't seem to work that way: you don't need to "start" a level in EOL to make it "public". This really would be fine for me, if I could "ban" certain of my levs.

6. The fact you weren't able to give any better answer than that to this proves that this is a question that should be taken seriously. You are just a bit too fan of EOL to see that it really matters. If you are incapable of thinking levels something more than "just levs ffs" it doesn't mean that it's the same for everyone. EOL is a great home for adhkgd.lev with best times, but when a contest/level pack is made with care it starts to get closer to the Internals. "It's just levels ffs." (© zworqy) so make all internal times and recs instant-public too. And here I say it again so that each and everyone of you understand: This would be fine for me, IF only the levels I have "started" with EOL would get this instant-public treatment.

8. And often people refuse to see the real flaws no matter how straight they are told to them.

EDIT:
Thank you Kopaka, that cleared out some facts and that's what we really need in this situation. After reading your post I don't think the situation is that "bad".

You were talking about times showing on all those pages, how/when are people able to download recs? And, for cup levels I think it hurts to see all the finished times on the lev before the deadline. (if the cup has not been started through EOL, I guess this will be the situation)

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 11 Mar 2010, 15:08

there is a possibility we add some column 'lock' in the level table, it's 3 words in mysql clause for me not to send the 'best times' list and kopaka would be able to add it to his site too
i don't like this option though

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 11 Mar 2010, 15:10

What possibilities are there when starting cups? For example, are FF events possible in EOL?

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 11 Mar 2010, 15:25

milagros wrote:there is a possibility we add some column 'lock' in the level table, it's 3 words in mysql clause for me not to send the 'best times' list and kopaka would be able to add it to his site too
i don't like this option though

Why don't you like this? I think it sounds very nice.

Orcc · Post by **Orcc** » 11 Mar 2010, 15:47

LousQ wrote:What possibilities are there when starting cups? For example, are FF events possible in EOL?

Almost all the options from normal battles are available. Just few things are excluded, like one-life and speed.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 11 Mar 2010, 18:07

Ville_J wrote:Why don't you like this? I think it sounds very nice.

we've put much effort with kopaka to do all this shit in eol and now everybody will block their levels

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 11 Mar 2010, 18:13

But I think it's very reasonable for author to decide. And 99% of the levels won't be blocked. I just think there should be the possibility, because it can be very important to those few levels (on-going cup levels and sach). Maybe do so that Kopaka/you can only block, if you really want to suck all teh possible levels with times into teh database =)

Post by **SveinR** » 11 Mar 2010, 20:55

Ville_J wrote:And, for cup levels I think it hurts to see all the finished times on the lev before the deadline. (if the cup has not been started through EOL, I guess this will be the situation)

Isn't it so that if you've put yourself as "hidden" in EOL when driving a lev, then your possible finished times won't be shown on F7 (and not on the site either)? Kopaka or mila clarify please

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 11 Mar 2010, 22:45

it won't be ingame (f7 menu) but will be in teh top10 on teh site and ingame (shiftf5)

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 11 Mar 2010, 23:48

Mawane · Post by **Mawane** » 12 Mar 2010, 00:32

i like turtles

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 12 Mar 2010, 03:04

I am inclined to go for hidden times for cups everywhere until the cup ends. What is the opinion of you guys; kopa, zwor, mila?

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 12 Mar 2010, 10:52

I agree with teajay. It will save a lot of time since there will be most of cup's with hidden times imho.

niN · Post by **niN** » 12 Mar 2010, 10:53

Well yes, but what about external recordtables? I feel it's the authors own right to choose where his levels should be displayed. Especially if there should be times on them published. I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over again so just read some of my previous posts

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 12 Mar 2010, 11:07

niN wrote:Well yes, but what about external recordtables? I feel it's the authors own right to choose where his levels should be displayed. Especially if there should be times on them published. I feel like I'm repeating myself over and over again so just read some of my previous posts

Did you read my post? Do you agree? Would be nice to know so we can agree exactly where is the "problem" and then can see what we can do about it

niN · Post by **niN** » 12 Mar 2010, 11:58

Oh yeah, sorry kopaka I read it and I fully agree, that is the only page which could do any harm to some external websites

. How about you, do you agree with my posts? If we both agree then I'm sure a solution is not far away!

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 12 Mar 2010, 12:19

Yes I do (:

niN · Post by **niN** » 12 Mar 2010, 12:33

Good, then I think we should discuss options.

1) Make some RSS feed so that other websites can use the info the EOL website uses, thus will make the recordtables identical. This can however be a problem for non automated websites and it will take away recordtables (#) unless you do some pro guru coding

2) Make a feature to block a level pattern. For example admins have rights to block all times from a level pattern (e.g. niN???.lev) and users can apply for blockage.

3 - my personal favourite - ) Keep the EOL site about Battles. Only share stats and times from battled levels. In other word, use EOL as a replacement for #battle.

Now since I got quite lotsa critisism for my alternative #3 I guess that is out of the question. Having reflected on it a bit more myself I understand why some people think it's a nice feature. Any of the #1 or #2 works for me. Though if #1 could be executed in a nice and easy way I guess most of the community would prefer this one so that all externals will still be on one page. I only hope it wont lead to hit counts of <10 on the other websites because everybody checks the times on the EOL website instead

.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 12 Mar 2010, 13:41

Well one doesn't rule out the other.

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 12 Mar 2010, 15:07

Well, I would vote for 1 and 2 combined. Number 2 just because of the cup thing. What are your thoughts, what should I do with TalviC levels after EOL release? How would you see the situation? I don't mind any times being shown on EOL site after the deadline. And to make it clear, I would not be blocking 95% of my levels from EOL site, even if it was possible. Meaning that vjxb levels can and will be there and so on. It's just few levels in the future that I do not wish to appear on that site, nor the times/recs anything.

EDIT:
And I ask again in case you missed the last time (and this is very important): How/when are people able to download recs from EOL database?

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 12 Mar 2010, 15:43

Ville_J wrote:EDIT:
And I ask again in case you missed the last time (and this is very important): How/when are people able to download recs from EOL database?

Winning recs from battles/cups can be downloaded when the battle/event is over. No other recs are automatically uploaded to the database. Aside from this there will be an upload function on the site you can use if you wanna share other replays, here you can select if they are private, shared for team/designer/everyone.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 12 Mar 2010, 16:17

teajay wrote:I am inclined to go for hidden times for cups everywhere until the cup ends. What is the opinion of you guys; kopa, zwor, mila?

Ofcourse. Times in cups run through EOL are hidden everywhere ingame. On the site they are not currently, but they can and will be.

For non EOL cups ofcourse there are no way for the site/game to know a level is currently used in a cup, so I'm not really sure what to do about that.

Haruhi wrote:If i want to release my levelpacks (lets us Lvchrt as an example,) but they are battled. If i upload Lvchrt48 and later decide i don't want it in the final pack, it's tough titties for me, It's already there.

Question: is there an option to upload a "remix" level... ie i swap start and flower in Lvchrt48, can i click some box "remix of: (Insert levelfile here)" And have it as like... a sublevel on the EOL site? i mean like this:

Remix like that is not be possible, just do like we do now, LVCh48rm.lev ect. You can start two levels with same filename though. But would be kinda confusing for ppl aswell having to remove/add the levels from lev folder because there's two with the same filename.

Yes if you battle Lvchrt48.lev it will be in the database, but if you at a later time make a new level you can still "save" it in database with same filename and they will both be there, so if you make a levelpack on the site you can choose either of those two levels to add to the pack. Though I would probably just recommend using a new name pattern if you're changing some of the levels like that for a pack to avoid confusion.

Mawane wrote:i like turtles

Me too.

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 12 Mar 2010, 17:02

milagros wrote:there is a possibility we add some column 'lock' in the level table, it's 3 words in mysql clause for me not to send the 'best times' list and kopaka would be able to add it to his site too

I don't understand why you won't do this, it seems to be very easy and it would solve all the problems almost like teh magik! And it wouldn't take anything away from EOL so PLIIIIIIIIIIDE!

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 12 Mar 2010, 17:55

there is one other issue with this :
every level you ever play is uploaded with its crc to the database
the problem is that if some lev creator is testing some pre-version of his levels outside editor and being online, all the versions of the level get saved (then the problem is if teh ingame lev download should donwload the first or last version)

any idea how to handle this?

abruzzi · Post by **abruzzi** » 12 Mar 2010, 18:03

zamknij ryj

Mawane · Post by **Mawane** » 12 Mar 2010, 18:47

milagros wrote:any idea how to handle this?

check mark "play offline" option in configurations

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 12 Mar 2010, 18:53

well you can disconnect / reconnect but still i guess ppl wil not do it always

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 12 Mar 2010, 19:10

I like to chat and play battles while creating levels, so it's not so nice to go offline.

Idea to fix this: Every designer names their incomplete levels something like "loustemp.lev" and gives it the real filename only when it's fully finished. Of course the lev will still be downloadable before finished, but it's the battlers' problem if they're lame enough to go download and hoyl.

Post by **SveinR** » 12 Mar 2010, 19:56

milagros wrote:there is one other issue with this :
every level you ever play is uploaded with its crc to the database
the problem is that if some lev creator is testing some pre-version of his levels outside editor and being online, all the versions of the level get saved (then the problem is if teh ingame lev download should donwload the first or last version)

any idea how to handle this?

Can't the ingame lev download just download the level that's actually been started as a battle?

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 12 Mar 2010, 20:22

we want nice collection of levels, levpacks and stuff, all downloadable ingame

Ecchi · Post by **Ecchi** » 12 Mar 2010, 22:13

Make an option to set the level to "in progress" maybe? and won't be able to start/share it before the level state is set to "complete"?

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 12 Mar 2010, 22:19

noone would press that button

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 12 Mar 2010, 22:25

Why not? I would press it for sure, since ALE has no testing mode.

jonsykkel · Post by **jonsykkel** » 12 Mar 2010, 22:30

i woud press the button