suicidal

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Lukazz
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Re: suicidal

Post by Lukazz »

Tigro wrote:Depression is a disease. In many cases it is treatable by medicne, similar to taking insulin with diabetes. If you are suffering from it, and think you can just "force yourself not to", you are most likely bound to fail. Which eventually results in premature death.
I agree with Tigro here. It's silly to think about mental illnesses any different than about physical illnesses. A severe depression will definitely not go away by changing your thoughts, being more active, traveling or anything else. Suggesting these things to someone who suffers from a depression is more harmful than anything else.
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Madness
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Re: suicidal

Post by Madness »

Tigro wrote:Doctors sell us bad medicine intentionally.
This is true though. First, they can't promote alternative medicine even if they know it'd help better. Second, they cooperate with drug companies and give you what they get paid to promote.
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Re: suicidal

Post by 8-ball »

Why would a doctor recommend something not proven to work any better than placebo? That's what alternative medicine is. Otherwise it would be called medicine.
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Re: suicidal

Post by Madness »

Who proves that medicine works?
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Lukazz
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Re: suicidal

Post by Lukazz »

Some people here should take an Introduction to Scientific Research class, and maybe a statistics course or two. "Alternative medicine" my ass. If all those studies are faked by pharma lobbies (I guess that's what you're trying to say), why can't "alternative medicine" (I put the term under quotation marks, because like 8ball said, there is only medicine and stuff that's not working) do the same?

The story about the bad huge pharmateucial companies, paying for study results and paying doctors so they sell their vs. the surpressed alternative medicine companies is the bigges bullshit ever. Homeopathy alone is a multi-million euro industry in most european countries, and unlike real pharmaceutical compies, they have zero expenses for product development or studies to prove any actual effects. If all studies are faked anyway, why have I never seen a good faked study proving anything considered "alternative medicine"?
Madness wrote:First, they can't promote alternative medicine even if they know it'd help better.
Who or what is preventing them to do so? What are homeopaths and other "alternative healers" doing, if not exactly that?
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Re: suicidal

Post by Polarix »

Tigro, it's Human specie. A specie consist of races (I know that you know of course).
Sorry, I just had to say it. Now carry on.

Also this topic is nice, good to see not-random people talk about this issue.
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Re: suicidal

Post by Madness »

Lukazz wrote:If all those studies are faked by pharma lobbies (I guess that's what you're trying to say), why can't "alternative medicine" (I put the term under quotation marks, because like 8ball said, there is only medicine and stuff that's not working) do the same?
I never said any studies were faked or anything. There needs to be money to be made though.
Lukazz wrote:The story about the bad huge pharmateucial companies, paying for study results and paying doctors so they sell their vs. the surpressed alternative medicine companies is the bigges bullshit ever.
Corruption is everywhere, it's naive to think that all of them do it fair and square.
Lukazz wrote:
Madness wrote:First, they can't promote alternative medicine even if they know it'd help better.
Who or what is preventing them to do so? What are homeopaths and other "alternative healers" doing, if not exactly that?
Well, they can be sued for that if it doesn't work and lose their job or even go to prison. If they prescribe you something that's officially certified and you die anyway, they are safe. :wink:
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Re: suicidal

Post by Sunshine »

Lukazz wrote:A severe depression will definitely not go away by changing your thoughts, being more active, traveling or anything else
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474733/ "Therefore, exercise was as effective as medication for reducing symptoms of depression in that sample. Interestingly, 10-month follow-up of those participants revealed that exercise group members (70%) had significantly (p = .028) lower rates of depression than those in the medication (48%) or the combination groups (54%).27 Finally, at 10 months, regular exercise involvement was a significant predictor of lower rates of depression (OR = 0.49, CI = 0.32 to 0.74, p < .01).26"

Harward Health Publications: Exercise and Depression "A follow-up to that study found that exercise's effects lasted longer than those of antidepressants. Researchers checked in with 133 of the original patients six months after the first study ended. They found that the people who exercised regularly after completing the study, regardless of which treatment they were on originally, were less likely to relapse into depression."
Lukazz wrote:The story about the bad huge pharmateucial companies, paying for study results and paying doctors so they sell their vs. the surpressed alternative medicine companies is the bigges bullshit ever.
Dark Side of Medical Research: Widespread Bias and Omissions so these drug companies might do 10 trials on a single drug and if 9 of them show it doesnt work or shows negative results they dont report those and just publish the one they got the result they were hoping for. "One of the most well-known examples of bias involves the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) paroxetine (Paxil), an anti-anxiety medicine. The pharmaceutical company GlaxoSmithKline suppressed results from four trials that not only failed to show treatment effectiveness for off-label use of its SSRI among children and teens"

These Are The Drugs Doctors Are Paid The Most To Promote

and then there is this nice company who sold (knowingly) aids infected drugs: Bayer Sells AIDS-Infected Drug Banned in U.S. in Europe, Asia

you can find million different examples of drug companies being unethical if you just search for it
Tigro wrote:
kuchitsu wrote:Obviously very different things. Kinda hard to believe that depression is caused by chemical processes
It's not obvious.
And the second sentence made you look really stupid.
Serotonin and Depression: A Disconnect between the Advertisements and the Scientific Literature " there is not a single peer-reviewed article that can be accurately cited to directly support claims of serotonin deficiency in any mental disorder, while there are many articles that present counterevidence."

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/516262 "Since the 1960s, investigators have proposed the "serotonin hypothesis," which implicates low brain levels of serotonin in depression. However, extensive research to date has failed to confirm this theory."

The Chemical Imbalance Myth

lukazz i think suffers from dunning-kruger on this topic pretty hard, get a clue man -.-
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Re: suicidal

Post by Lousku »

Tigro wrote:Depression is a disease. In many cases it is treatable by medicne, similar to taking insulin with diabetes. If you are suffering from it, and think you can just "force yourself not to", you are most likely bound to fail. Which eventually results in premature death.
I think you misread something. I agree, depression needs treatment. I'm saying we don't have very good treatments yet and in most cases antidepressants are ineffective. I'm not saying something silly like "just think positively". There is no easy solution that will work for everyone. Not medicine, not talking with a professional, not travel, not forcing happy thoughts... I'm also not trying to discourage anyone from trying any of those things.
Tigro wrote:Doctors sell us bad medicine intentionally
Because it works for some people, is mostly harmless and there's generally no better alternative.

I'm on vortioxetine myself because it might have helped somehow..? Hard to tell.

I guess I'll repeat why I'm saying this at all: If you consider professional help a last resort that is expected to help, and then it turns out to be ineffective, the next logical step is not suicide because oftentimes professional help is ineffective and you don't know what else might work better.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: suicidal

Post by Lousku »

Lukazz wrote: I agree with Tigro here. It's silly to think about mental illnesses any different than about physical illnesses. A severe depression will definitely not go away by changing your thoughts, being more active, traveling or anything else. Suggesting these things to someone who suffers from a depression is more harmful than anything else.
That's a bit of a silly and polarizing way to look at it. Travel might well cure depression. Medicine might well cure depression. Why does it need to be definitely one or the other? How is it "more harmful than anything" to suggest options that have worked for others? This, like most things, is not black and white.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: suicidal

Post by Lukazz »

Vermin Supreme wrote:
Lukazz wrote:A severe depression will definitely not go away by changing your thoughts, being more active, traveling or anything else
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC474733/ "Therefore, exercise was as effective as medication for reducing symptoms of depression in that sample. Interestingly, 10-month follow-up of those participants revealed that exercise group members (70%) had significantly (p = .028) lower rates of depression than those in the medication (48%) or the combination groups (54%).27 Finally, at 10 months, regular exercise involvement was a significant predictor of lower rates of depression (OR = 0.49, CI = 0.32 to 0.74, p < .01).26"
Thanks for posting the study, very interesting. However, I was not trying to say that activity is useless and taking medication solves every problem, not at all! It's still important to go to a doctor/psychologist/whatever at first and check if you might need medication.
Results showed that while medication worked more quickly to reduce symptoms of depression, there were no significant differences among treatment groups at 16 weeks (HAM-D: F = 0.96, df = 2,153; p = .39; BDI: F = 0.90, df = 2,153; p = .40).
This is a very important factor too, because if you have a severe form depression (and I was specifically talking about severe depression, study was working with moderately depressed patients) you will most likely not even have the energy to start exercising, so medication might be necessary at first.
Vermin Supreme wrote:Harward Health Publications: Exercise and Depression "A follow-up to that study found that exercise's effects lasted longer than those of antidepressants. Researchers checked in with 133 of the original patients six months after the first study ended. They found that the people who exercised regularly after completing the study, regardless of which treatment they were on originally, were less likely to relapse into depression."
regular exercise can improve mood in people with mild to moderate depression. It also may play a supporting role in treating severe depression.
Same thing here.
Lukazz wrote:The story about the bad huge pharmateucial companies, paying for study results and paying doctors so they sell their vs. the surpressed alternative medicine companies is the bigges bullshit ever.
Dark Side of Medical Research: Widespread Bias and Omissions so these drug companies might do 10 trials on a single drug and if 9 of them show it doesnt work or shows negative results they dont report those and just publish the one they got the result they were hoping for. "One of the most well-known examples of bias involves the selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor (SSRI) paroxetine (Paxil), an anti-anxiety medicine. The pharmaceutical company GlaxoSmithKline suppressed results from four trials that not only failed to show treatment effectiveness for off-label use of its SSRI among children and teens"

These Are The Drugs Doctors Are Paid The Most To Promote

and then there is this nice company who sold (knowingly) aids infected drugs: Bayer Sells AIDS-Infected Drug Banned in U.S. in Europe, Asia

you can find million different examples of drug companies being unethical if you just search for it
I think I phrased that badly. I know what publication bias is, I know how to manipulate study designs to get the results that you want. It was more about the dichotomy of "bad pharmaceutical companies" vs "good alternative medicine companies" that's just wrong. If you're critizing study designs or suspect publication bias, you should conduct your own studies and do it better. "All studies are faked anyway, so scientific is research useless" is not a good approach. There's no way around scientific prove in medicine!
lukazz i think suffers from dunning-kruger on this topic pretty hard, get a clue man -.-
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Re: suicidal

Post by gimp »

Lukazz wrote: I agree with Tigro here. It's silly to think about mental illnesses any different than about physical illnesses. A severe depression will definitely not go away by changing your thoughts, being more active, traveling or anything else. Suggesting these things to someone who suffers from a depression is more harmful than anything else.
It was delightful to read Vermin dispute this with cited resources to your claim that exercise or changing your thoughts doesn't work. Lukazz i hope maybe you can learn that analyzing data using statistical analysis is very logical, and great way to show the validity of empirical research. It would be okay to put stubbornness aside and admit you are wrong about your claim that exercise or changing your thoughts cannot cure severe depression. ironically your way of thinking is the very essence of the way a depressed person would rationalize their depression, and lose all hope. although i don't think you will change your mind, i hope you do for your own sake and also for those who are suicidal and might listen to you thinking they can't do anything about it except take medicine.

I had very bad depression for awhile (and i think everyone does at some point), going to the gym saved me, as well as reading many books related to positive thinking. Call it mumbo jumbo science or whatever you want, it worked for me, my depression is gone. I have no idea if medicine works well or not, but i have never taken anything for depression.

I am not disputing that medicine doesnt work. i am saying that exercising and changing the way you think does work.

Here is a picture about happiness
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This picture also disputes Lukazz's claim that exercise doesn't work or that changing your thoughts doesn't work. This picture has a lot of studies behind it, you will see it in most psychology text books, also in a netflix documentary on happiness. admittedly, it is quite subjective for the time being, but a good stepping stone in the right direction for how some scientists are choosing to study happiness rather than depression.

it shows that 50% of our happiness is reliant on our genetics; if you have a happy family you will most likely be happy.

some 10% or so is attributed to external factors out of your control, i.g. death in family, bad location, family income, etc. also the opposite like winning the lottery. people who are depressed often put all there attention in this area.

some 40% of our happiness is attributed to an internal locus of control (you are in control of your own destiny). this is the portion you can control, the part of your brain where you change how you think, what you do, choose to exercise, eat healthier and so on. It is this portion that you can control that is enough to allow anybody to be happy if they choose to focus positively on it. This 40% is large enough to overcome your bad genetics and whatever bad situation you may be in.

I know my personal account is not a reliable source of information, but if you'd like you can use me as an example. i have had suicide in my family, and believe i am probably on the lower end of the genetics side in terms of happiness. however, i have decided to accept the idea that thinking positively as well as exercising rids me of my depression. I embed this truth into my subconscious as much as possible. I maximize my happiness amount for that 40% that i can control, it works fabulously. Not saying you can't choose medicine for the 40% part, but i am saying that you dont have to. i hope anybody who is suicidal can be inspired to try and think positively and choose healthy living.
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Re: suicidal

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gimp wrote:It was delightful to read Vermin dispute this with cited resources to your claim that exercise or changing your thoughts doesn't work. Lukazz i hope maybe you can learn that analyzing data using statistical analysis is very logical, and great way to show the validity of empirical research. It would be okay to put stubbornness aside and admit you are wrong about your claim that exercise or changing your thoughts cannot cure severe depression.
I have no problem admitting that I heavily underestimated the effect of exercise on the progress of a depression. I'm very willing to learn something new, if it's from a scientific study, like the one Vermin cited.
i hope you do for your own sake and also for those who are suicidal and might listen to you thinking they can't do anything about it except take medicine.
That's not what I was trying to say, but I still think (and made the experience) that in severe cases medicine might be the first step that is necessary before taking other actions and that's important to see a doctor.
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Re: suicidal

Post by ville_j »

I am very happy to read gimp's post, it has pretty much everything I wanted to post in this thread. I have never been suicidal, but I think I have some input for the discussion. If you are feeling depressed and/or suicidal, my first suggestion would be to read a book about the topic (or happiness or something related). Not because it will definitely help, but it's probably the smallest step towards getting better. You don't have to trust to anyone, you don't have to go anywhere (except somewhere to get the book), you don't have to talk to anyone.. you can just read the book at your own phase and decide how you feel about it. Some of these books might feel a bit too cringeworthy (cf. roope's experience at the psychologist), but you might also find one where the tone is right, just try to read it with open mind and don't be too quick to judge. As gimp also pointed out, it might sound stupid bogus, but for some people it works to just read or hear someone saying something that kinda kicks off some kind of a change. I have read a few books about different topics and sometimes when I feel like everything is not going as intended I can recall a paragraph from the book and I get the feeling like "yes that's exactly what I'm going to do now", and it doesn't feel stupid at all. Again, it might not work for everyone and in every situation, but it's quite easy step to try, that's why I would suggest it for everyone.

While I do agree that people should have a right to decide about their own life, I think suicide is never a good or the right decision. There are people around you who care about you a lot and would do anything to help you, if only they knew how. But as you probably know, there is a gap between the minds of a depressed person and a healthy person, so giving or receiving help is not easy. If you can remember the times when you still were happy it is important to understand that you can have it back, even though some things are gone and it has been a downhill for a while or longer. There are always new things to come, you can never know what might happen tomorrow, as cheesy as it sounds.
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Re: suicidal

Post by gimp »

:idea: :D :beer:

sorry for getting on your case lukazz
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Re: suicidal

Post by Tigro »

@ville_j:
Reading a book? Trying to comprehend it? Positive thinking? Obv you never experienced a depression. One of my family members was in a state that he slept 22 hours a day so he wasn't forced to be confronted by his thiughts. He got up from bed just to eat a bit and go to toilet. Try reading in such a state. Try to think positively when your own mind haunts you. 24/7.

(He took medicine, got better. Ofc there was a big change in lifestyle needed as well (which was instructed by a doctor) - sleeping regularly, eating enough, exercising etc.).
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Re: suicidal

Post by roope »

Tigro, you have to remember there are different levels of depression though. I'm pretty sure I could go to a doctor and be diagnosed with depression, but I'm also quite confident that I can at least for a while help myself with my own actions. Of course the hardest part is actually doing it (whatever it is; travel, reading books etc.), naturally. I've been in the mind state. But it doesn't mean that it wouldn't work if one would with some sik spurt of strength achieve trying it.
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Re: suicidal

Post by ville_j »

Tigro wrote:@ville_j:
Reading a book? Trying to comprehend it? Positive thinking? Obv you never experienced a depression. One of my family members was in a state that he slept 22 hours a day so he wasn't forced to be confronted by his thiughts. He got up from bed just to eat a bit and go to toilet. Try reading in such a state. Try to think positively when your own mind haunts you. 24/7.

(He took medicine, got better. Ofc there was a big change in lifestyle needed as well (which was instructed by a doctor) - sleeping regularly, eating enough, exercising etc.).
You have a very black and white thinking and I have no idea why you interpreted my post the way you did. It's like you ignored 90% of what I wrote, so I'm not even going to write any kind of counter argument. Anyways I have experienced depression myself if that is to justify anything, and also a few people in my "circles" have experienced it with varying results.
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Re: suicidal

Post by Tigro »

What I'm trying to say, is - When you are sick, go to the doctor.
Occam's razor.
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Re: suicidal

Post by ville_j »

That's an apparent advice and no one argued against it. However, for a variety of reasons people might not want to go to see a doctor before they are very sick – if even then. I already wrote it in my first post.
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Re: suicidal

Post by Lousku »

ville_j wrote:That's an apparent advice and no one argued against it. However, for a variety of reasons people might not want to go to see a doctor before they are very sick – if even then. I already wrote it in my first post.
This. And the other pieces of advise can be taken in addition to the doctor, or as backup if the doctor didn't help.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: suicidal

Post by Madness »

Reading Tigro's logic makes me suicidal. (It helped one of my friends -> nothing else works.) :roll:
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Re: suicidal

Post by kuchitsu »

I'm heavily depressed. Please don't ask to elaborate or to talk, I don't have the strength to explain anything. Just say something nice about me (but only if it's honest).
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Re: suicidal

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i'm sometimes depressed and/or lightly suicidal
hi im arzenik :>
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Re: suicidal

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kuchitsu wrote: 26 Jun 2019, 23:03 I'm heavily depressed. Please don't ask to elaborate or to talk, I don't have the strength to explain anything. Just say something nice about me (but only if it's honest).
healing hug <3
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Re: suicidal

Post by jblaze »

kuchitsu wrote: 26 Jun 2019, 23:03 I'm heavily depressed. Please don't ask to elaborate or to talk, I don't have the strength to explain anything. Just say something nice about me (but only if it's honest).
not much i know about you except what i saw on lauta and eol chat. what i could tell is that you are a good soul with good intentions, creative, imaginative and a plastic mind and i believe if you truly tried, you could change your world!

btw, is it attention/appreciation that you need? this is what it seems like reading your post. remember other people can talk good or bad. and they WILL talk good and bad. it doesnt matter, you live YOUR life and other people might just be a help. dont rely YOUR life on others. this might be truism etc but if you got functioning brain without real damage, working legs, working digestive system, no pain diseases then you are fine and its up to you to feel good. you just have to WANT it, truly want it and head for it and go full positive, even if you doubt in success at first! sending metaphysical love and support to you, my friend!
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Re: suicidal

Post by milagros »

at some point of my life i was depressed and suicidal, not far from doing it
most likely it was all linked to my heavy daily drinking
decreasing amounts and frequency most likely solved the problem
if i went to see a doctor, i would be definitely fucked
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Re: suicidal

Post by kuchitsu »

Thanks for all the nice messages, here and in PM. Last few days I felt like total garbage that can't possibly matter to anyone, but I think I'm starting to feel a bit appreciated now. I don't think I can go on without appreciation at all, but I agree that a big portion of feeling good should be based on me being satisfied with myself (or working towards being satisfied with myself). I mean, even the nicest compliments from people will only work if I'm personally able to agree with them.
if you got functioning brain without real damage
Well, sometimes I wonder about this part. There are so many societal things that people around me are able to do seemingly effortlessly, without even appearing to think about it. I think it's fucking incredible how they can talk about so many topics in a very structured manner for a long time, quickly switch between them, pick up on invisible social cues, etc. Behaving around people requires endless improvisation and lighting fast decision making, but somehow they are able to do it for hours and hours every day. I find that way more amazing than understanding quantum physics perfectly or knowing 100 languages. Knowledge is just stuff that you store in your head and pull out when you need it (like a lifeless computer), but these people are actually able to come up with new ideas out of nowhere all the time (like beings with imagination). They are all geniuses in my eyes, and sometimes I feel so miserable in comparison to them.

But I guess in reality their behavior is also based on knowledge, like behavioral patterns that they've acquired over the years, and I can probably slowly learn to be more like them if I keep trying to interact with people like I'm doing. And some of them say that they like me even the way I am right now, so I guess I shouldn't be so hard on myself. And, like, I'm trying to improve and I should focus on that instead of the fact that I'm not perfect (oh my!). Or something.
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Re: suicidal

Post by AndrY »

Hah I have same problem, kuchi, imo. Cant just communicate with ppl, so dont have friends (in all meanings) here in university after 4 years of learing (have few in my city only). But anyway life is fun imo))

i hope this suicidal not bcz of elma meeting?(
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Re: suicidal

Post by kuchitsu »

AndrY wrote: 28 Jun 2019, 13:10 i hope this suicidal not bcz of elma meeting?(
heh no
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Re: suicidal

Post by Hosp »

sending big hugs of support

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Re: suicidal

Post by ArZeNiK »

i forgot to show my support for kuchitsu

you are a good person
you matter

ok here it
hi im arzenik :>
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Re: suicidal

Post by gimp »

Kuchitsu

You asked for honesty, we have only mildly interacted on this forum, but I always read your posts. You have integrity and you listen to what people say, you always seem like you have the ability to change your mind on something, which makes your own words and thoughts more powerful to me. I am less likely to listen to someone who could not change their own mind and are stubborn. You seem like a deep thinker and there is a lot beneath the surface. Again im flying off the handle with this one cause dont really know you, but i think you genually care about others and have tremendous power to do good in others lives.
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Re: suicidal

Post by kuchitsu »

Thanks a lot guys. I asked for some nice words in a few communities and also in private messages with some people I cherish, and in these several days I've probably heard more good things about myself than in the previous 365 days. Made me realize that I'm much more appreciated than I thought. Also kinda made me think that perhaps we don't praise each other often enough but that's a different topic. Love you all.)
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Re: suicidal

Post by kuchitsu »

maybe in 3 months, when I turn 27. Cobain route
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Re: suicidal

Post by abruzzi »

Hi, did anyone suffer from like nothingness? Like you wake up every day and just wait until the day ends. Between 20yo and 30yo I had several 2-6 months long periods when I was at home and doing totally nothing, just maybe cruising random level, then go to bed again for 2 hours, then get up, log in to email, then log in again, having forgotten that I've just checked it, then going to sleep and wake up again.

Some time ago when I was sad, with this state, you could call it depression, but recent 2-3 years I'm actually laughing at myself in some way and wondering how bizzarre it is. People around doing things and I just can't get involved in anything, very often refusing the repetitive things. Also things like having a walk or riding a bike are even more creepy for me, because when the mind isn't occupied I tend to think more about senselessness of life and get unhealthily amazed how people can do all these things "just like that", seemingly hardly ever contemplating life and doing all these every day things like everything was that obvious.

Anyone had a similar problem and knows how to try to tackle it? Just don't say find a hobby or sth as I tried many things and already it makes me cringe when I imagine myself being happy with some new random thing. Same with job as I already have an online one and the fact that I actually own money and have no idea what to do with it, adds to the misery.

Regarding the topic name, I do deeply know that suicide woudn't bring any profit as everything can maybe change (though unlikely) and never considered it very seriously, and now I'm just laughing in mind that I could commit suicide already as the life bores me to death.
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Re: suicidal

Post by zebra »

You have many same kind of thoughts as the Ecclesiastes book in Bible. Maybe it's worth reading.
https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/ecclesiastes/1/
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Re: suicidal

Post by kuchitsu »

I think everyone contemplates life and wonders about its meaning sometimes, but happier people are engaged in a number of activities that don't leave them enough time to philosophize constantly. While you're questioning the point of it all, they are too busy thinking about their current project, anticipating an exciting meeting with friends tomorrow or just resting after performing a difficult task. They just don't have enough mental energy left for going over same nihilistic bullshit again and again in their heads. This is why I believe that if you want to get rid of nothingness you need to fill it with stuff that will turn it into somethingness. So yeah, find a hobby, a variety of hobbies actually. :P What do you mean by cringing when you imagine yourself happy with a new hobby anyway? You don't want to be happy?
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Re: suicidal

Post by gimp »

I like kuchitsu advice, just go involve yourself in meetups and things, create a schedule and hold yourself accountable. Act like you want to be there and fake it till you make it, eventually brain will be tricked to enjoy other people with pointless conversations engaging in pointless activities.
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Re: suicidal

Post by abruzzi »

zebra wrote: 18 Aug 2020, 08:42 You have many same kind of thoughts as the Ecclesiastes book in Bible. Maybe it's worth reading.
https://www.biblica.com/bible/niv/ecclesiastes/1/
Thanks zebra, not a bad read, I thought there isn't anything interesting in the Bible at all.

Yes kuchi, maybe people are contemplating, but somehow they can do all these lifey things "like nothing ever happened". Regarding the activities, scheduling a lot doesn't really help, either. In november 2017 I was already upset with the nothingness and I wanted to have as busy schedule as possible. So I went to UK, applied for a hard, physical job, joined a chessclub, attended scrabble tournaments, often went biking (also 30mins to and from work), had quite a good company in our house etc.

The problem is even though some things were new and really fun and I like them, in the background I always had the thought that I'm doing all this just to defeat the nothingness, that it looks silly that I have to artificially come up with new activities and kind of fake it to my brain that all is good. So yes, after some time I slowly stopped doing all these things, started going to work less frequently and in november left back home thinking "phew, another year of life lived through, another year closer to death... what to do next..."

Back to the contemplating - you see - ok if people are contemplating such things, then why is it such a taboo... I never heard this topic being brought up, and whenever I talk about things like that - well, regular people don't have a clue. Another thing which amazes me is how people can treat all these every day things so seriously. Like when I'm in a tram and listening to a convo about what happened in work or how they like or dislike their new shoes or whatever. I feel like an alien or some set of atoms just having been given the consciousness. And forced to go through this life with this stupid amazement by how people can care that naturally.

If I do something it's either some totally random thing or just some meeting with friends, never initiated by me, unless some exception, or a trip with them somewhere, but even then I can't enjoy it fully, often thinking 'lol wtf am i even doing here... ofc it's nice here but what's the big difference between lying in bed and seeing a couple of photos?'... same with movies, I'm a total enemy of the movies, always cringing and losing the plot after 5 mins at most due to not caring. I restarted the uni 11 times exactly. Each time I just less or more randomly dropped out, usually just waking up like 'ha ha ha no no no, what am I doing ha ha can't act like I care anymore', even if I paid for the whole semester in advance. Same with work - worked for some corpo for 2 years - very long as for my standards - but a friend I got to know cuz of elma (wieloryb) keeped me there and again the amazement by the dirty tricks and how people can badly change when they pursue their careers. And when in 2016 I was like ok it's enough I'm leaving to UK look for some random job - people couldn't even believe, because how can one leave when can hoyl the career, I must be joking lol. And with this nothinging at home, I can't quite imagine people just staying at home, waiting until another day, week, month passes unless they are heavily depressed. Well I'm not depressed and I can. When family asks me why I am doing this, letting my life pass like that I'm like ...so what? You want me to find some another artificial hobby once again and just pretend I'm doing something fun while dying out of cringe and therefore suffering more?

I could go on and on explaining, but seems nobody can quite grasp the issue, so I will probably have to finally after 10 years ask some professionals maybe, though when I was depressed earlier and I took some medicine, I sometimes tried to explain it to the psychiatrists, but they didn't seem to be really knowing... Crap, crap...
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Re: suicidal

Post by kuchitsu »

abruzzi wrote: 20 Aug 2020, 06:52 Yes kuchi, maybe people are contemplating, but somehow they can do all these lifey things "like nothing ever happened".
I believe this is mostly an illusion caused by the fact that we can't peek into the minds of others. Of course everything that other people do seems "natural" since we can't sense the mental energy they're putting into it. But it's pretty naive to think that it just comes naturally to them.

In general, doing "all these lifey things" can be pretty damn hard. Imagine a happy man with a wife and two kids, a job, a hobby, a group of friends he wants to stay in contact with, an interest in travelling and so on. You think he does all that stuff "just like that", without ever doubting the point of it all, without ever suspecting that perhaps it's meaningless and not worth the insane effort? Hell no! I'd argue that it's MUCH easier to just be a nihilist who doesn't care about anything and browses Reddit all day instead. Having an engaging life requires constant hard work.

I feel like Twitter does a pretty good job of showing what's actually happening inside of people's heads. You can find millions of users who constantly talk about their worries, insecurities, doubts and so on. If you read their tweets for a while it gives an impression that they are near a breaking point, yet if you met them in real life you'd probably find them very confident and happy-looking. People have many different sides, most of which you can't see when you're just passing them by.
abruzzi wrote: 20 Aug 2020, 06:52The problem is even though some things were new and really fun and I like them, in the background I always had the thought that I'm doing all this just to defeat the nothingness, that it looks silly that I have to artificially come up with new activities and kind of fake it to my brain that all is good.
I feel like a lot of philosophers, especially existentialists, would say that doing things just to fill the void is a pretty good description of what life is all about, e.g. "we are born with nothingness inside and we're terrified of it, so we're constantly trying to resist it". Except many of them would describe this behavior not as something silly but as a heroic fight.
abruzzi wrote: 20 Aug 2020, 06:52 Back to the contemplating - you see - ok if people are contemplating such things, then why is it such a taboo...
Because it's a fucking difficult and depressing topic, which goes against the general purpose of socializing (to relax, to have a good time, to make good memories). Bringing it up is like announcing that you've just lost your mother, been diagnosed with cancer, got painful diarrhea, etc. People don't want to be reminded of the dark parts of life. That doesn't mean they aren't aware of them though!
abruzzi wrote: 20 Aug 2020, 06:52 Another thing which amazes me is how people can treat all these every day things so seriously. Like when I'm in a tram and listening to a convo about what happened in work or how they like or dislike their new shoes or whatever.
Ok, this is very relatable haha. I think we're kinda similar in that it's hard for us to see the point of basic talking that isn't particularly intellectually stimulating. But you need to understand that people aren't actually taking these things as seriously as they might seem! In a lot of everyday conversations people don't really care that much about what is being said. The purpose of them isn't to exchange important information but to simply create a pleasant feeling of bonding instead of just sitting together awkwardly. It's a different kind of communication that is often intended not to fill your head with something "meaningful" but to fill your heart with pleasantness and comfort. To us it seems extremely weird, but I think it's because we haven't learned that "emotional language" yet so it's impossible for us to fully understand it at this point.
abruzzi wrote: 20 Aug 2020, 06:52I will probably have to finally after 10 years ask some professionals
I think that's an excellent idea. Seems like this problem has been plaguing your life for a looong time, so you definitely should seek outside help in solving it!
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Re: suicidal

Post by gimp »

I am a regular person and engage in small talk quite often, probably the kind you cringe at. Its purpose is much like what zebra explained, I cannot dive right into philosophical talk right away, and also i like to gauge the person, is small talk hard for them? I find that attractive for some reason. Are they going to talk more? Whats their body language like? Can i trust them and can they trust me? Small talk is like an interview. What can be annoying is when you have to engage in it often with people you do not like, i admit that is cringy, but it is that way for everybody involved. You do this with family, coworkers, dentists, etc. And that is because it would be more cringe if it were complete silence, and too much on the brain for constant deep talk or thinking, so since something needs to fill the void small talk is the solution.
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Re: suicidal

Post by milagros »

abruzzi, try alcohol at home in large amounts
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Re: suicidal

Post by ribot »

Abruzzi,
I don't think philosophy or existential thinking is done only by depressed people. I'm not depressed and I have done a lot of that. And I mean a lot, like, I was doing it naturally, with a lot of energy and inspiration, as diving deeply into it as if it mattered a lot. I was doing it very intensely for years, without bothering with work or studying.

It has been a long time now since I even bothered to even start talk about anything like that though. Even people online or in elma community can't even understand my simplistic examples that are meant to only start the conversation.

One thing I noticed about what you wrote is that you can learn more about how the mind works. Most people's mind are stuck in something, whether it's their new shoes or how meaningless life is. Most of it are mental infinite loops. When you do experiences that go beyond the mind - that state of "nothing matters" - will just be a waste of time.

Most people's behavior can be easily explained. They didn't think, they just did whatever came to their mind, obeying the grownups as kids (by force), and copying what popular people were doing. They get uncomfortable whenever they have to think for themselves, or act in any other way than they have grown comfortable in by repitition. (The repitition is a protocol. First say hi, then say how are you, then talk about work, etc)

But when it comes to happiness and meaningfulness it's very inherent in the human capacity. In other words you can learn to hack the mind to trigger the chemistry.

So then it comes back to: why would you bother? And, you've already done all that but then you are back to boredom. The point then is to hack your own behavior. Why bother listening to the bored mind, to the meaningless mind? Why are you being slave to that?

I think your questions are well answered in books by Carlos Castaneda. You have latency to learn the power of not-doing, if you only ever care to stop repeating the repetitiveness of discouraging yourself
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Re: suicidal

Post by abruzzi »

Thank you guys for very nice responses, particularly kuchitsu who really enlightened me on his point of view and used very good words. I'm still in the process of processing all these an reading some articles etc.
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