Low-carb diet

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Low-carb diet

Post by nick-o-matic »

Has anyone here tried low-carb diets? Me, adi and some of my friends have been obeying such a diet with solely positive experiences. If someone has not heard of such, it is a diet, in which you avoid sugar and starch (foods including potatoes, grains and corn contain a lot of starch), which are so called "fast carbohydrates." Instead of carbohydrates, you should get majority of your daily energy need from fat and protein. Also you should eat much vegetables for all kinds of important minerals and vitamins. The offical consensus is that low-carb diets are dangerous, but recent unindependent researchs and personal experiences of me and many of my friends have shown it to have many positive effects on health.

I began this diet on last summer because I was always very tired and hungry. My friend told me that the symptoms could be diet-related and that I could fix them by eating properly. In addition to tiredness and feeling hungry, I also had gained some extra weight during the years, which was new to me, since I had always eaten a lot without any noticable signs on my waist.

When I started this diet, the symptoms disappeared. I became more alert (altough I am still a bit sleepy guy) and I lost ~10kg of body fat, which was way beyond my initial expectations. I had no idea I could lose so much. I lost many sizes in pants and even my abs became partly visible.

In addition to this diet, me and adi try to avoid food additives. We try to make our food from clean and original raw materials. Everything that is industrially processed is suspicious to us. Especially margarines and trans-fats (fats which are used for example in deep frying by fast food industry) are very bad in our opinion. We are not that strict though, for example adi can eat a fried pizza sometimes and I might eat some chocolate or even candy especially if I go excercising. But we recommend this for anyone, especially for those who have problems with obesity or diabetes!
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by ville_j »

I've heard a lot about these, mostly positive things, and some of my friends are also doing it occasionally. I haven't noticed any effect on them, maybe because they have so bad self-discipline that they always quit after a month or so. I myself haven't tried it, and probably never will. It's not about not believing it works or anything like that, I just don't want to change my eating habits. Ofc it doesn't mean I'm a fatty or that I don't care what I eat: I prefer fat-free/low-fat products and use fats very strictly when cooking (I don't use on bread at all etc.). But at the same time when I go out for lunch I really don't want to think much what the food consists of. I just want to enjoy it, that's why those diets are not suitable for me. I rather use a bit of my free-time for exercising than start limiting my food circle.
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Re: Low-carb diet

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I prefer a seafood diet. I see food and I eat it.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by Bludek »

Respect to you, nom. I coudln`t do it. I just love tasty food and i dont care if its fat or unhealty. I do eat in fast foods from time to time (well, coz i have to; hasty life-style), but I also kinda like it. Impsy living without pizza and hamburgers :D
I know its better to eat healty and I could live longer without occasional fat and unhealty food, but I rather live happy life with food I like, than (maybe(!)) a bit longer life, but with food I like less.
Only thing I dont like is that Im a bit tired sometimes without reason. Dunno if its caused by bad eating habits, but I do sleep a lot usually and that works too :D

I WAS thinking about some diet in the past, but I would seriously consider it only when there is no other option. I dont need it now imo.
Interesting thread anyway
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by adi »

I think it's not that hard obeying low-carb diet. I don't even consider it as a diet, for me it's just a part of a healthier lifestyle. It isn't hard for me to not to eat potatoes, rice, bread or pasta. Actually I think they are very boring foods in my opinion. Even avoiding sugar is easy for me because due to avoiding it my weakness for it has disappeared. And of course eating much grease is not a problem for me, it makes food much tastier and keeps your hunger away for a very long time. But of course this diet requires more cooking, because the ready-foods are usually very unhealthy. But I like cooking very much so it's not a problem. Only of course at school/job it might be hard to obey this diet because at least in Finland the food at the lunch rooms is usually very low-fat and carbohydrate-based because of the official regulations.
Ville_J wrote:I prefer fat-free/low-fat products and use fats very strictly when cooking (I don't use on bread at all etc.)
Why oh why? You seem to be a victim of the official low-fat brainwashing. I tend to read all the time more and more about harmfulness of low-fat products (especially low-fat milk) and i think that everyone should find more information about these things themselves. Also non-low-fat foods taste very much better.
Bludek wrote:I just love tasty food and i dont care if its fat or unhealty. I do eat in fast foods from time to time (well, coz i have to; hasty life-style), but I also kinda like it. Impsy living without pizza and hamburgers :D
People and their tolerance for carbohydrates is individual and the tolerance tends to get worse with age, so if you start to have health problems some day, I
recommend trying this diet. But adding more good greases (like butter) to your daily food shouldn't be a problem.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by nick-o-matic »

Jappe wrote:eat less and you lose weight, doesnt matter what it is
The main point for this is not becoming thinner, the main point is eating more healthy. For example adi is in this solely for health reasons because he hasn't ever had any body fat to lose. Fast carbohydrates cause surprisingly much diseases, especially diabetes. And also it seems that they cause cancer and heart problems even though it's not a commonly accepted theory.

But I must specify that there are much differences in carbohydrate-tolerance around the world. For example in the Middle East people have been eating grain for thousands and thousands of years, so they have developed good tolerance. But most people in this forum come from northern countries, where our ancestors hadn't got used to grain or sugar - we didn't even have much fruits that contain sugar, maybe apples at max. Our ancestors were hunters and we haven't changed much from those days so it's best to eat like they ate.

And I didn't even try to eat less, I always ate as much as I wanted and still lost weight very much.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by ville_j »

adi wrote:
Ville_J wrote:I prefer fat-free/low-fat products and use fats very strictly when cooking (I don't use on bread at all etc.)
Why oh why? You seem to be a victim of the official low-fat brainwashing. I tend to read all the time more and more about harmfulness of low-fat products (especially low-fat milk) and i think that everyone should find more information about these things themselves. Also non-low-fat foods taste very much better.
I admit that I am not an expert when it comes to the health debate, but if you've read much about the problems of those low-fat products (I'm not talking about low-fat crisps xD) could u then enlighten me a bit? I think there has been a bit of confrontation between different diets and people are just saying whatever to backup their choice. And I use fat-free milk, is that like even worse than low-fat???? The reason why I do this is to cut down the amount of fat in home made food which is not that bad thing in my situation I think. I also have not had problems with the taste, I don't make that delicious foods myself!
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by jaytea »

adi wrote:
Ville_J wrote:I prefer fat-free/low-fat products and use fats very strictly when cooking (I don't use on bread at all etc.)
Why oh why? You seem to be a victim of the official low-fat brainwashing. I tend to read all the time more and more about harmfulness of low-fat products (especially low-fat milk) and i think that everyone should find more information about these things themselves. Also non-low-fat foods taste very much better.
where's your fucking source for this bullshit? the reason he drinks low-fat milk is that he probably follows a diet that isn't retarded (eg. carbs/protein/fat in 40%/40%/20%), realizes his fat intake needs to be more limited, and recognizes that dairy is a shit source of fat. the butterfat in milk is relatively dense in saturated fats and, as such, forces you to restrict your intake of other better or tastier foods such as MEAT, eggs, certain vegetables/vegetable oils, and the occasional treat. now, if you know what you're doing and value the fat in your whole-fat milk above all others then by all means suck the milk directly out of the cow's tits if you want.

on topic: the reason why you're feeling content with your current diet is that your brain, starved of glucose and using sub-optimal fuel to function, is making you lose your grip on reality. ok, it's not that bad, but why the fuck would you want to hamper your mental faculties any more than years of elma has already served to do? also, you pussies probably don't lift weights, but if you did you would surely find that essentially starving yourself is not conducive to good gym performance. sure, you'll probably be able to muster up the energy to perform a light jog or keep up with your grandma as she performs breaststroke across a pool, but any intense anaerobic exercise demands the presence of muscle glycogen, something a consistently low-carb diet does not provide you much of.

the long-term health impacts of remaining in a state of ketosis are not known, so i hope you both fucking die of cancer. you want to know another reason why you feel better now? because, on top of cutting out carbs, you cut all the bullshit out of your diet. you're probably eating healthier than 99% of people with their junk food, microwave dinners and such. don't delude yourself into thinking this same feeling could not be achieved (and more) by re-introducing healthy whole-grains and carb-rich vegetables back into your diet. also, a proper low-carb diet is likely to be quite expensive for you welfare mongos.

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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by ribot »

from what i've heard, if you don't eat carbs, the body can't really use all that energy from them... and it's like a way to eat greedily, even with a lot of fat, and not gain weight... and people have died from it...

but, you are not writing what you actually do eat... last week, for one week i was eating almost 100% chimpanzee diet... or in other words just fruits and green leaves... green leaves contain proteins, and basically all vitamins and minerals that you need... i did also combine it with chlorella, and wheat and barley grass... not forgetting the chlorophyll..and some goji berries... so this was not a low-carb, diet, but still i lost weight...and i actually got loads of good stuff too...

raw food is to reccomend if you want to get rid of diabetes, and non-acid food if you want to get rid of cancer... green leaves are good for making your stomach more acid, and for your body to take up more nutrients...then don't forget about chewing properly, and getting some fibers for the stomach to work properly as well...

there is some video about how to more to raw food by victoria boutenko also... if you seriously want to be healthy for a longer period of time :)
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by nick-o-matic »

Thanks for your comments jaytea and ribot :D It's good to have some criticizing because now I can see that we have explained some things badly. I'll have to go soon but I'll give a very quick answer to few things. I'll try to dig up some sources later. Unfortunately most of our material has been in Finnish.
jaytea wrote:the long-term health impacts of remaining in a state of ketosis are not known, so i hope you both fucking die of cancer
It hasn't been scientifically studied for a long time but at least one extreme example that gives some information on long-term ketosis is one African tribe that only eats meat and drinks milk and blood and they are very healthy. Heart-related problems are practically unknown among them. Of course their genetics are somewhat different from ours though.
jaytea wrote:also, you pussies probably don't lift weights, but if you did you would surely find that essentially starving yourself is not conducive to good gym performance. sure, you'll probably be able to muster up the energy to perform a light jog or keep up with your grandma as she performs breaststroke across a pool, but any intense anaerobic exercise demands the presence of muscle glycogen, something a consistently low-carb diet does not provide you much of.
Excercising is totally different thing. I do lift weights now and then and for such extreme maximum-effort sport you of course need some sugar. As I mentioned in my first post, I might then for example eat some chocolate. Also I usually drink some juices then. But I have noticed that I don't need sugar for for example swimming or running. I have ran twice over 3000 meters in the cooper's test (=running for 12 minutes) under this diet (well I think I drank some juice then too). But in the beginning of my diet I had problems with running though, I felt lack of power.
jaytea wrote:don't delude yourself into thinking this same feeling could not be achieved (and more) by re-introducing healthy whole-grains and carb-rich vegetables back into your diet. also, a proper low-carb diet is likely to be quite expensive for you welfare mongos.
As we have said, we eat lot vegetables! We are not on atkins diet which is more strict. I sometimes buy whole-grain bread. It has fibres and stuff. Sometimes I might have days when I eat lot carbs (you can't eat well every day) but then I'll try to be more strict on the following day. And for your disappointment the expensiveness of this diet is not a problem for me. :D
ribot wrote:but, you are not writing what you actually do eat... last week, for one week i was eating almost 100% chimpanzee diet... or in other words just fruits and green leaves... green leaves contain proteins, and basically all vitamins and minerals that you need... i did also combine it with chlorella, and wheat and barley grass... not forgetting the chlorophyll..and some goji berries... so this was not a low-carb, diet, but still i lost weight...and i actually got loads of good stuff too...
Unfortunately meat and other animal-related foods contain lot of useful things that you can't get from vegetables, for example K2-vitamin. :( Vegetarism would be nice for environment though but I don't think it's healthy on long term. Also I believe that animal-related foods contain lot of useful things that science hasn't discovered yet and therefore you can't get them from the pills.
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Re: Low-carb diet

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My mother does this o,o
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Re: Low-carb diet

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i eat lots of meat and drink lots of alcohol, ez every day's diet
i don't really like sweet stuff like snickers bar or smth
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Re: Low-carb diet

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I guess I have a high carb diet then, because I eat potatoes and bread pretty much everyday. You know, for me every lunch/dinner goes like ok what should I have with the potatoes this time. Usually meat, fish or fried eggs. I dont have regular times for lunch/dinner, because I might wake up 8 or 12am, usually one meal somewhere between 'normal' lunch and dinner times. In the evening I usually eat couple of sandwiches, I try to not eat after 8pm, except some lighter stuff like an orange or two. As for sweets/chocolate, pizzas/burgers etc, I havent eaten any of those for a few months now except pizza very rarely

Could my diet be reason for being tired a lot? Or was I only born as a lazy bastard =o I don't think I would even manage to _try_ low-carb because I have eaten a lot of bread everyday since,well, always.

Oh and I want some sources for calling low-fat milk bad?
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by analcactus »

Dame, what do you speak about milk? I only drink (my grandma says "eat milk") fresh natural from-under-the-cow milk or just pasterized (doubt how to spell) 3.5% fat milk. Donno if you are afraid of butterfat in it, but i am not.
On thread: i will try this diet very soon for sure. I am interested
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by nick-o-matic »

Ville_J wrote:And I use fat-free milk, is that like even worse than low-fat????
I would say yes.
jaytea wrote:
adi wrote:Why oh why? You seem to be a victim of the official low-fat brainwashing. I tend to read all the time more and more about harmfulness of low-fat products (especially low-fat milk) and i think that everyone should find more information about these things themselves
where's your fucking source for this bullshit? the reason he drinks low-fat milk is that he probably follows a diet that isn't retarded (eg. carbs/protein/fat in 40%/40%/20%), realizes his fat intake needs to be more limited, and recognizes that dairy is a shit source of fat.
I'll answer for adi for this. He meant that no matter on what diet you are, low-fat milk is not healthy. Milk is chemically extremely complicated food that has been optimized by nature during millions of years. You simply can't take away one of its biggest ingredients and hope that the healthiness of it remains constant. Actually for example milk's calcium and vitamins really require milk fat to be able to get absorbed to one's system. Also pasteurization destroys all the healthy bacters of milk (of course it does it for the bad ones too and increases the lastingness of milk) and homogenization changes its chemical structure radically and according to some studies causes very unhealthy properties to milk. Unfortunately I only found scientifical articles that support whole-what milk, not articles that claim that low-fat milk is unhealthy (there should exist many though). Anyway I know many persons who can't drink low-fat milk after drinking it for many years (they have began getting lactose-intolerance symptoms) but can drink unprocessed milk without any problems. That should tell something. And adi is btw one of them.

http://www.ajcn.org/content/early/2010/ ... 4.abstract
http://www.sahlgrenska.gu.se/english/ne ... .cid901191

For Ville and Zweq you can find much Finnish material about milk and low-carb diet issues by Antti Heikkilä. He has even been writing books about those (I haven't read them yet but I have heard they are nice). Anyway he is a real "vastarannan kiiski" who seems to be against to common opinions in every field. Anyway I think his diet opinions are mostly nice.

http://www.anttiheikkila.com
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNcBvuqmU3s
jaytea wrote:dairy is a shit source of fat. the butterfat in milk is relatively dense in saturated fats and, as such, forces you to restrict your intake of other better or tastier foods such as MEAT, eggs, certain vegetables/vegetable oils, and the occasional treat.
I have never heard about that. So far I have only been reading about marvellousness of dairy, in Sweden there's actually a small butter-boom going on. And it's coming to Finland too, consumption of butter in here has recently began to grow for first time for maybe like 40 years.
jaytea wrote:now, if you know what you're doing and value the fat in your whole-fat milk above all others then by all means suck the milk directly out of the cow's tits if you want.
Actually I have had the pleasure of doing that most of my life! That was one of the best sides in growing up in the countryside. I have drank many thousands of liters of it during my life and for example my bones have became really strong. Well, I broke my wrist last spring when I had a bicycle accident but my bike suffered much more damage than my bones (my crack was very tiny but the steering bar got twisted).
ribot wrote:but, you are not writing what you actually do eat...
At home I often cook meat or chicken (150g-250g) with maybe 200g-300g of vegetables in a frying pan with lots of grease (25g-50g). I mostly use butter but also I have olive and avocado oils here. And i might make a yoghurt sauce from Turkish yoghurt. Also I make omelettes sometimes. I can also sometimes cook some fish in the oven, which I eat with mayonnese and vegetables. Often I eat Turkish youghyrt with Finnish, self-picked, berries. At school I take for example some meat sauce or something like that and eat it with salads while others eat them with pasta, rice or potatoes. I try to eat as much salads as possible in there because they are a bit workful to do yourself. I mostly use frozen vegetables at home.
ribot wrote:and some goji berries...
My friend just bought goji berries. :D They were nice but normal blueberries are the best I think.
ribot wrote:there is some video about how to more to raw food by victoria boutenko also... if you seriously want to be healthy for a longer period of time :)
I'll check it some day. Raw food rules but I really think that you also need some meat, eggs, etc (which also can be raw food) with them.
milagros wrote:i don't really like sweet stuff like snickers bar or smth
I think that's a very good sign
Zweq wrote:Could my diet be reason for being tired a lot? Or was I only born as a lazy bastard =o I don't think I would even manage to _try_ low-carb because I have eaten a lot of bread everyday since,well, always.
Very possibly it's the reason. It might be hard to change your diet by snapping your fingers but changing to whole-grain and then starting to decrease bread and potato amounts little by little might be easier. I think you easily get addicted to fast carbohydrates if you eat them a lot.
analcactus wrote:i will try this diet very soon for sure. I am interested
Very nice analcactus =)
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Re: Low-carb diet

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this discussion is awesome, why are you guys so sure your idea of a good diet is the correct one? it's funny how people are always on their backfeet, not ready to change opinion. At the moment it looks like the low-carb camp vs the low-fat camp. At least I have seen pretty big variation in all kind of articles about different diets and food. Always read everything with criticism, who wrote it, is it biased. Personally, when I eat I try to take everything moderately, that's just the common sense i've got. I will try a low-carb diet one day, any idea for how many days you have to keep on going to see/feel the (possible) difference?
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by nick-o-matic »

Jappe wrote:this topic has lowered my view of nom considerably, i thought he is pretty reasonable guy but this foam-in-the-mouth topic proves otherwise. you talk about eating healthy but you include stuff such as eggs, butter, full fat milk, frying vegatables in oil, mayonnese etc. You seem to lack even the basic understanding on this topic. Your feeling better is probably explained by placebo effect and the fact that you started eating semi decently instead of just plain garbage

Jaytea is right that 40/40/20 is much better share and if you really want to be healthy you cut fat, not carbs. I suggest you start eating "normally" and exercise more
Damn. I'm sorry if I've been fanatic in this topic because I don't even follow this diet super strictly like for example one of my firends. Anyway like you, I also used to believe that animal fat isn't healthy and bread and potatos are excellent basic food like they have taught in school and i used to eat them even though I didn't even like them much. But somewhere at the age 16 or 17 I began to feel more and more tired. Somewhere in 2007 I even once visited a doctor for my tiredness but they didn't find anything brom the blood test. And starting this diet made me feel much better and be much less hungry too (it didn't happen quickly though because I didn't really start this all of a sudden). And yes, it might be a placebo effect. Placebo effects can be very strong, I know. But at least -10kg in the weighing scale shouldn't be placebo. I must admit that I have began to excercise a bit more lately though.

But I didn't eat plain carbage before by the way. Especially at home in the countryside I used to eat in a way that is officially considered to be very very healthy (exluding whole-fat milk). Probably something like 50/35/15.

Also I'm not alone, in forums etc most comments from people that have tried this diet are positive. This diet is even starting to get a bit into fashion in Finland.

Anyway surely one diet doesn't fit everyone, like I've mentioned. But yeah, I'm strongly stating that animal-related fats are healthy and very good sources of energy for anyone and yes, it's the opposite to what they teach you at school. I recommend you to read more about those statements for example from here:

http://karppaus.info/
http://www.anttiheikkila.com/index.php?id=5&sivu=2
Zweq wrote:I will try a low-carb diet one day, any idea for how many days you have to keep on going to see/feel the (possible) difference?
I'm not sure. If you try it, try it at least for some weeks I think.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by ribot »

i think that it's good that you have lost weight, and perhaps this diet is good to do for a bit... it is not some hokus pokus that you lose weight when eating this...but it's not like placebo is only apparent when the treatment is bogus...placebo is always there, whether the treatment works or not, as long as you see results...

and i don't know why you think we need meat and all that. we humans have a lot of beliefs of what we need which are just based on habits. our bodies are constituted like herbivores, though somewhat adjusting to meat. but many animals can survive with eating mainly grass. even the meat we have in stores in not natural, nor healthy. those animals eat too more carbs instead of grass so that they grow fast, and become too fat for their own good. it makes the meat lower quality. then of course you could discuss how unfresh meat is, but it's a completely different topic.

anyway, jappe and jt are pretty delusional too. there is not so much research on the most natural food there is, to eat a load of green leaves... or whatever, i'm not less delusional here, but just pointing it out
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by nick-o-matic »

ribot wrote:i think that it's good that you have lost weight, and perhaps this diet is good to do for a bit... it is not some hokus pokus that you lose weight when eating this...but it's not like placebo is only apparent when the treatment is bogus...placebo is always there, whether the treatment works or not, as long as you see results...

and i don't know why you think we need meat and all that. we humans have a lot of beliefs of what we need which are just based on habits. our bodies are constituted like herbivores, though somewhat adjusting to meat. but many animals can survive with eating mainly grass. even the meat we have in stores in not natural, nor healthy. those animals eat too more carbs instead of grass so that they grow fast, and become too fat for their own good. it makes the meat lower quality. then of course you could discuss how unfresh meat is, but it's a completely different topic.

anyway, jappe and jt are pretty delusional too. there is not so much research on the most natural food there is, to eat a load of green leaves... or whatever, i'm not less delusional here, but just pointing it out
I think that the hocus pocus is pretty much the fact that grease burns slowly and therefore keeps your blood sugar steady for a long time. Eating starch or sugar just makes a quick peak to your blood sugar even if you ate much of it and you are soon hungry again. Therefore when you eat heavily you pretty much automatically eat less calories too.

Your meat points are very nice. The quality of meat that is sold in the supermarkets isn't so good indeed. I've heard that that's the case especially in America, where they use much more steroids and antibiotics for cows than in here. But I'm in such a lucky situation that I can get really fresh, organically produced cow meat from my parents, they have the whole cow in their refridgererators at the moment. :D And it's really clearly better than the meat you normally buy from the supermarket.

But I think that the grean leaves diet (or more generally vegenitarism) is too one-sided for human beings. Remember that at least here in Scandinavia our ancestors have all been hunters and adapted to eating animal-related stuff plus something that they have been able to collect from nature, for example berries.

Anyway this subject is starting to be more and more visible in Finnish media. You can read almost every week articles about low-carb diets from the biggest Finnish news pages. Recently there has for example been something about possible unhealthiness of low-fat milk and also an article about this article, which seems to be very good: http://www.latimes.com/health/la-he-car ... full.story.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by milagros »

i don't see anything unethical
there was a competition between species and humans won
lions don't find it unethical either
whatever, i don't give a shit and eat lots of meat because i like it
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by teajay »

aren't ethics itself completely preserved for humanity?

I liked to read through this thread, I noticed some very interesting stuff. I was raised a vegetarian up until I was about 12. I didn't eat much sugar, and my mother was strict enough to have us only eat crisps on friday. I ate fish though, eggs, and the occasional soy burger and tofu stuff. Nowadays I am very fond of chicken, and my diet consists of rice mostly in combination with a fair amount of vegetables.

I can easily eat about 400-500 grammes of veggies at dinner, because I prepare too much food. Sometimes I leave the rice out. Recently, I started experimenting with a cut on alcohol. My intake was way too high and too frequent. I was doing 3 pints a day at one point, with obviously more on the weekends and thursdays. From the 9th of january onwards I've had 3 bottles of beer (just now I drank a tiny bottle of 11%).

My problem is the carbs. I'm addicted to them. I don't like sweet stuff, but I like salt. It's cheap and it's great. Mind you, not fast food, but potato crisps and stuff like that. Though I find myself eating more healthy than when I was still living with my parents (usually it's the other way round). My goal is to do the marathon in October, so my mind is set on training a lot. A good workout combined with healthy intake is in my view the best thing to do.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by Orcc »

For the Finnish people:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iFbEo9nJRM#t=126s

Also teh first 40 secs of the same clip
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by nick-o-matic »

Jappe wrote:you can get all nutrients you need from vegetarian or vegan diet. i think you underestimate the understanding we have about human nutritional needs. its true that vegans need to pay attention to what they eat more and can lack for example B12 and kreatine if they dont take supplements (although b12 is added to many vegan foods). however i think you like meat, and you need some justification for this unethical behavior so you tell yourself humans can not live on purely vegan diet and be healthy at the same time, these kind of excuses are very common, its generally hard to admit to yourself such things so you rationalize them somehow. studies have shown that vegetarian health is better than that of non-vegetarians (wikipedia veganism page, sources there)

humans are not really adapted for carnivorous food, if you compare human anatomy to other meat eating species there are several distinctions, for example carnivores generally have short intestinal tract, jaws moving only up and down, sharp teeth and higher stomach acidity and other stuff as well which humans do not. if you also look at species closest to us, other primates, they are almost exclusively herbivores

i dont really care if you eat meat or not but i think everyone who does should at least be honest about it; its unethical behavior
At least I believe that it's very difficult to really get all the possible needed nutrients with purely vegan diet. Also you will get easily too much carbs and for example omega-6 fatty acids (that seem to be very unhealthy in big amounts apart from super hyper healthy omega-3 ones). I quickly checked the abstracts from the articles you mentioned and according to those, vegans indeed are more healthy than people in America and UK in general, but maybe it's only because they are eating semi decently instead of just plain garbage. :)) Also according to this
Further categorization of diets showed that, in comparison with regular meat eaters, mortality from ischemic heart disease was 20% lower in occasional meat eaters, 34% lower in people who ate fish but not meat, 34% lower in lactoovovegetarians, and 26% lower in vegans.
pure veganism isn't as healthy diet as vegetarism where you also eat some animal-related stuff.

Also I think that humans are pretty much physically adapted for eating meat. We just have evolved from monkeys that are herbivores and therefore we have much herbivorish characteristics. Our carnivoric characteristic is our brain, which we have used as our hunting weapon instead of brute force like most animals.

But yeah, I also like eating meat and if I wanted to quit it, it might be hard for me. But also (or maybe that's why) I respect those who don't eat red meat for ethical reasons. But then again I see only very little if any point in not eating things like milk products or eggs (or even fish and chicken because their senses are pretty narrow) for ethical reasons. But even stopping consuming red meat isn't the first thing to start making world a better place in my priority list. Also as a countrysider I can tell you that at least in Finland you can be a meateater with pretty small weight on your conscience, the situation is much worse in most countries of course. Also you can always buy for example organically produced eggs where chicken have been provided natural and comfortable environment. They taste better too! Really!
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by ribot »

I've read a few points about why meat is healthy. For example I've read that we easier can take up omega 3 from fish than lin seed oil, and then meat has full proteins... and I suppose b12 as well... but it is just a guess.

However, almost all books suggest to eat a lot of vegetables. Scientists often seem positive to meat, but some of them are quite negative too. It's like you decide by yourself whether it is good or not. Though I've never stumbled on to anyone saying meat will prevent cancer or so. Many, many vegetables do.

Cooked food, as well as canned and other produced foods lose a lot of nutrients. It's not hard to find out that by eating organic raw food you will get loads of nutrients that is otherwise lost (when speaking about losing out on stuff). However there is not a lot of research on the green leaves. I'm not saying you should eat only green leaves, but studies say that green leaves are very healthy for you. One point I can make here is that for example the carrot and beet root have less nutritional value then their respective leaves. Green leaves are the main source of loss in nutrients out there! Green leaves are loaded with most of the things that human beings need, according to science, even proteins!

Lately I've been taking green smoothies for breakfast. I blend raw spinach with raw apples and some water. It makes me feel fresh and clear, like an inspiration for the day, rather than the heavy and tired feeling I get from other food.

Then about the ethical point of view, of course it is something subjective. What jappe means by that comment is only known by him. But any kind of meat you eat means a lot more impact on the environment than a vegetarian diet. It is usually not cooked in a healthy way though, all that meat. But if you enjoy your life the way you eat... there's not so much more to it. Except when you die :)
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Re: Low-carb diet

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Re: Low-carb diet

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apples, flowers and shit taste good, while being healthy
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by skint0r »

I just started doing this: make most if not all food from scratch, e.g. any type of bread, pastry, sweets, pizza etc. Less additives -- eat when hungry/whenever, just l2self-control and nat be idiath, fit in random 10min+ exercise few times each day. Feels good man.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by Bismuth »

I did this too. I lasted one day. My life is a failure. :(
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by teajay »

How's that working out, skint? I am not on a diet, but try to eat veggies and fruits more and more, and less alcohol and fats, in combination with jogging and cycling. I did the marathon in october, so I'm not that bad. I still eat crisps many times a week, but it usually substitutes for lunch or dinner and I hardly eat sweets/chocolate/sugar, because it fails to please me and I get enough sugar from eating bread and fruit.
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Re: Low-carb diet

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high-fructose corn syrup fucking baddest for me personally. I will avoid teh like rutto
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Re: Low-carb diet

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I think this was a very interesting discussion, and I would like to know if nom is still doing this (or only for a bit for that matter). I think about food a lot, also in combination with prices. I can eat lots of bad stuff, just for the reason that it's cheap. But in the end being healthy is far cheaper than being obese from cheap food. Likewise I couldn't afford buying only biological stuff, because it's all expensive. I am inclined to eat meat, due to the lack of iron I have these days, but some people say you can do without. Though I don't like taking supplements. So it's not at all clear-cut on what the best way of living is and what your diet should look like, at least that's what I think. Your opinion please.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by Tigro »

my low-carb diet consits of:
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thats all.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by nick-o-matic »

Very nice Tigro.

Heh, the awkward feeling from reading your old posts. =) Anyway, I'm still happily doing this, I have been experiementing with more and less carbs, at times I have been eating really ketogenically but at the moment I am eating them more again. Partly because of my gf. More specifically my search for my own personally optimized diet has converged into something like this:

fat/protein:
-lots of butter, olive oil, coconut oil, etc cold pressed quality vegetable oils
-i always try to choose most fat-rich option from cheeses, minced meat etc
-however i avoid trans-fats, margarines and non-cold-pressed vegetable oils
-eggs, chicken, pork, beef
-whey protein
-youghurt

carbs:
-moderate amounts of potatoes and rice
-however i try to avoid grains as much as possible (expect buckwheat (=tattari) i use much sometimes, which isn't technically a grain even. it contains very slow and complex carbs)
-now been eating lots of apples as i can get them nearly infinitely from my parents from our own apple trees
-lots of different berries, mostly blueberries (i have picked dozens of liters of them again this year)
-lots of low-energy vegetables such as onions (i can get as much as i want from home), asparagus, spinach etc
-avoid sugar and high-fructose corn suryp
-also i think i get lots of energy from tomato ketchup (no added sugar) as i use it so much

So, it's been ridiciously easy to keep myself lean after dropping those few extra kilos few years ago. No self control nor excercise needed (I have had pretty long excerciseless periods). And my health is very fine otherwise also.

Skint0r's project sounds horrifying to me. Like teajay, I would also like to know how he's doing.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by twipley »

Well n0m that sounds nice.

If there is any handy articles around, be them high-quality Wikipedia articles, great, recent litterature reviews, and other stuff pertaining on how to eat, or even health in general that would be nice.

What is more important than health...
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by Zweq »

I've tried low amount of rye, oat, wheat, sugar for 4-5 days (of which 2 days were complete removal) and I've noticed great health improvements. So this might be a thing. I don't know what was my kcal intake though, did it remain the same etc.
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Re: Low-carb diet

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Optimal food is food before farming generation. Human bodies are made to eat meat, vegetables and fruits, but still I rarely live by that standard.
Good job Zweq, how long will you keep it up?
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Re: Low-carb diet

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I never got that argument.. Just because we didn't have something thousands of years ago, what says it's better than the alternatives we have today? We didn't have access to medicine or tooth brushes at some point in time either (human bodies weren't "made" to brush our teeth), yet we still live longer, survive more deceases, and have healthier teeth nowadays. Why would the food we cultivate necessarily be worse for us than the food we picked in the wild, or the meat we hunted?
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Re: Low-carb diet

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Igge wrote:I never got that argument.. Just because we didn't have something thousands of years ago, what says it's better than the alternatives we have today? We didn't have access to medicine or tooth brushes at some point in time either (human bodies weren't "made" to brush our teeth), yet we still live longer, survive more deceases, and have healthier teeth nowadays. Why would the food we cultivate necessarily be worse for us than the food we picked in the wild, or the meat we hunted?
I'm sure you are right, but some people are celiacs and some ppl develop gluten intolerance, and some ppl develop minor intolerance etc. I have tested more and I got bloaty as fuck from processed wheat product with sugar, got stress stomach and inflammations in back muscles got worse and anxiety got worse, and somehow magicaly as I stay away from it again stomach bloatiness is slowly going away, my stomach isn't burning like crazy and my anxiety is in a better state.

But of course I can't be 100% sure because I have so many variables in my diet right that changed at the same time. For example I also stopped using sugar and drinking orange juice and cofe completely.
Mats wrote:Optimal food is food before farming generation. Human bodies are made to eat meat, vegetables and fruits, but still I rarely live by that standard.
Good job Zweq, how long will you keep it up?
Probably forever, until if i notice some new health problems.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by FinMan »

I think sugar is really bad for me, the more sugar I eat the worse I do basically orka-wise. I haven't felt even nearly the same way towards glutein or anything like that (bread osv), even though a lot of my family members suffer from those things and would make sense if i did as well. I will most likely cut some of the stuff too though and see if i see improvement.

So my golden piece of advice: kids, avoid sugar and see what happens.
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Re: Low-carb diet

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Thats gonna be hard, but I'll try. Basicly live on sugar
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by nick-o-matic »

5 years and counting. 8) It's been quite success. I think my life would be worse if I didn't do this, I would have more body fat and less energy. I've been avoiding sugar and wheat etc but not unconditionally. Now and then I've got relatively much carbohydrates from from buckwheat, oat and fruits but considering the overall amount of carbs (low on average) and fats (high on average) I eat, I am clearly using fat as my main fuel instead of carbohydrates like most ppl and I'm probably in ketosis quite often which means that my brain is using ketones whom my liver makes for it out of fat. I think it's quite invidual thing which fuel source is best for you but it seems to be fat for me. After years of adaptation I don't really need extra carbohydrates even for going to gym. Also things like running go really well.

Yes, go for cutting sugar. It's the worst. It's not just empty calories (= vitamine-free calories) but (at least on high doses) it's fundamentally poisonous. It's not just the glucose which skyrockets your blood sugar and therefore also insulin levels but you know it's not just glucose, it's 50% fructose. Fructose has been previously considered as some kind of health sugar since it does not affect to your blood sugar levels (blood sugar is glucose) but it's actually quite equivalent to ethanol which everyone agree to be harmful (at least on high doses). Both are pretty addictive and both can only be metabolized by your liver, there is no cell that could burn it for energy. So liver makes fat out of it. Recently fatty liver (a problem previously only known by hc alcoholists) is nowdays a problem even for children. So glucose and fructose together is quite a combo. I think that you shouldn't even use fruits excess amounts even though they recommend those really much, and prefer vegetables instead. Also juices are nearly as bad as lemonades.

I try to eat and live healthy in general too. I try to get all the important nutrients (I use much vegetables and berries) and also avoid many food additives and processed fats. When I make food from meat I try not to fry it too much and use antioxidant-rich herbs to prevent carcinogen formation. And I try also to do some adequate amount of sports and avoid stress and so on... =)
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Re: Low-carb diet

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Science shows that people who eat well and exercise often are significantly happier.
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Re: Low-carb diet

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Science shows that people rarely changes untill shit happens.
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Re: Low-carb diet

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Okay
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Re: Low-carb diet

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mostly health issues :P
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by Zweq »

so which coconut and olive oil products acquirable in finland would be najs
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by Mats »

usually much products like that in the asian department
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by Zweq »

orka make new thread for this question: what is a norm daily amount of vitamin d? finland mans say 10μg which is 400IU("Vitamin D: 1 IU is the biological equivalent of 0.025 μg cholecalciferol/ergocalciferol" source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_unit), reddit mans say 5000-10000IU. finland mans say you wil DIE if you eat over 10μg (400IU) . So, even 5000IU sounds really insane, it would be like 20 pills of the vitamin D(D3) product i have.
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by k0xx »

I've been taking 2500IU/day for about 3 years now. Did not die, feel great. All in one pill, from xbrain.co.uk
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Re: Low-carb diet

Post by Tigro »

1. pack your things.
2. move to the South.
3. ??
4. profit.
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