euro bailout

[milagros]

owned

[Grace]

Read a couple of articles about this just now and still don't quite understand what happened. Slovakia denied the bailout but Slovakian Prime Minister still yelling and screaming that it's a defeat for Slovakia? Summary needed.

[Zweq]

haven't heard anyone bailing euro yet. svk just switching ministers until they get a satisfying voting result for some nab expand of crisis-money-bank. euro will fall soon anyway and nabs will panic and withdraw money from bank accounts, then we're talking...

[Bjenn]

We have svenska kronor still, fuck euro =)

[Chris]

oh dear...

But they would like to be covered by that European Financial Stability Facility. You can't eat cake and have a cake. Pay!

[milagros]

a brief description of the situation :
Whole banking system is fucked. All money in the system is a debt. National banks (not necessary public) produce money out of nowhere and lend it to private banks on interest (that means they want more money back than there was ever printed). Then public banks "produce" money by lending them further, because in most of the countries you need to have some 10% of the credit available, it leads to the fact that they lend significantly more than they actually have.. yeah, on interest. While everything works, banks have huge profit, when it collapses, they want money from the government, because they are "too big to fail". In the other words, incomes are private, losses are public. Other problem is that most states are living in debt, they borrow as much money as they could pay interest of. Debts are covered by new debts.

This is exactly what happened here. Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy.. borrowed much more money than they could ever pay back. Mainly German and French banks earned loads of money by lending Greece on very high risky interest rate. Everybody was happy, till Greece wasn't able to even pay the interest. And now everybody wants their money back. Obviously for all the sides the best would be if whole EU paid for it. Same fucking cunts who caused these problems are now arguing for EFSF (Barroso, who was the prime minister in Portugal at the right time, ..). Countries who have nothing to do with it, will have to pay too (Finland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Netherlands, ..). The main difference of the new EFSF is NOT that there will be just more money. The difference is that with previous version of this useless tool they were able to "save" only countries, according to the new rules they will be able to "save" private companies, aka banks. Because most of the parties in EU are supported by banks, there is no wonder, politicians vote for it.

That's one side of story.

Other side of the story is that EU is leading towards federative state with one ministry of finance. "Harmonised" taxes would be completely devastating to countries like Slovakia, no need to go into any details. We joined euro-zone under certain rules. We had to obey them for last 5 years before we joined the zone. Greece faked the stats for years. Now almost no country in the zone fulfills all requirements (Maastricht rules). Lisabon treaty (which is already quite fucked) says that every state is responsible for its own debts and ECB is printing european obligations.

We joined eurozone under certain rules which noone is obeying. But it wasn't only about rules, we got also some rights. It was our right to say NO to EFSF. Somehow noone gets this.

I wonder what will comrades in Bruxelles come up with. According to the rules in Slovak parliament, they can vote about the same thing only after a half year.

I'm proud slovakia said: FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING CUNTS!

[milagros]

ofc EFSF will be agreed by Slovakia in a few days. Slovakia will be fucked then. Countries with AAA rating such as Finland or Germany don't have to pay till someone actually needs to money. We have to pay beforehand.

[Madness]

I totally agree with the attitude of Slovakia. Why should Slovakia incur even bigger debts than they already have to finance some irresponsible Greece? Furthermore, nothing will ever help to shore up the shattered Greek economy since all this bailout money flows back to the German and French banks. That's it... nothing is done to bail anyone out unless it helps the big banks. Something is pretty fucked up right there...

oh dear...

But they would like to be covered by that European Financial Stability Facility. You can't eat cake and have a cake. Pay!

lol ?

[Kopaka]

yup good job slovakia :), eu needs to break down along with current capitalistic system

and nice description mila, can be hard often to get a whole picture of the situation from the news

[Antz]

yeah the dumbest thing is, even Finland is already terribly in debt. and yet we're told to give billions of euros away to help some other country. let's fix our own problems first...

[Grace]

Okay, thanks mila. That was the impression i got but didn't quite understand the intricacies.

Personally i agree with the slovakian point of view and good on the diplomats for having the courage to stand up to this and invoke their rights.

[Chris]

I totally agree with the attitude of Slovakia. Why should Slovakia incur even bigger debts than they already have to finance some irresponsible Greece? Furthermore, nothing will ever help to shore up the shattered Greek economy since all this bailout money flows back to the German and French banks. That's it... nothing is done to bail anyone out unless it helps the big banks. Something is pretty fucked up right there...

oh dear...

But they would like to be covered by that European Financial Stability Facility. You can't eat cake and have a cake. Pay!

lol ?

Madness,

eurozone want to limit the damage that Greece bankruptcy will cause. If ever country had been thinking like Slovakia, there would have been many bankrupts of banks and other institutions across Europe. Obviously countries that credited Greece would suffer massive loss too. This is all done to save other countries, not just Greece. It's absolutely reasonable to cure the cause of this crisis, not wait for another fiscal catastrophe, but not in Greece, but in whole Europe. And Madness, whose money in saved in banks?

yeah the dumbest thing is, even Finland is already terribly in debt. and yet we're told to give billions of euros away to help some other country. let's fix our own problems first...

Of course, because current Finland problems are caused by Finns. Oh wait they aren't. The problem roots somewhere in south.. Only steady growth will help countries like Finland or Slovakia, what is very hard in current situation.

[Chris]

a brief description of the situation :
Whole banking system is fucked. All money in the system is a debt. National banks (not necessary public) produce money out of nowhere and lend it to private banks on interest (that means they want more money back than there was ever printed). Then public banks "produce" money by lending them further, because in most of the countries you need to have some 10% of the credit available, it leads to the fact that they lend significantly more than they actually have.. yeah, on interest. While everything works, banks have huge profit, when it collapses, they want money from the government, because they are "too big to fail". In the other words, incomes are private, losses are public. Other problem is that most states are living in debt, they borrow as much money as they could pay interest of. Debts are covered by new debts.

This is exactly what happened here. Greece, Portugal, Spain, Italy.. borrowed much more money than they could ever pay back. Mainly German and French banks earned loads of money by lending Greece on very high risky interest rate. Everybody was happy, till Greece wasn't able to even pay the interest. And now everybody wants their money back. Obviously for all the sides the best would be if whole EU paid for it. Same fucking cunts who caused these problems are now arguing for EFSF (Barroso, who was the prime minister in Portugal at the right time, ..). Countries who have nothing to do with it, will have to pay too (Finland, Slovakia, Slovenia, Netherlands, ..). The main difference of the new EFSF is NOT that there will be just more money. The difference is that with previous version of this useless tool they were able to "save" only countries, according to the new rules they will be able to "save" private companies, aka banks. Because most of the parties in EU are supported by banks, there is no wonder, politicians vote for it.

That's one side of story.

Other side of the story is that EU is leading towards federative state with one ministry of finance. "Harmonised" taxes would be completely devastating to countries like Slovakia, no need to go into any details. We joined euro-zone under certain rules. We had to obey them for last 5 years before we joined the zone. Greece faked the stats for years. Now almost no country in the zone fulfills all requirements (Maastricht rules). Lisabon treaty (which is already quite fucked) says that every state is responsible for its own debts and ECB is printing european obligations.

We joined eurozone under certain rules which noone is obeying. But it wasn't only about rules, we got also some rights. It was our right to say NO to EFSF. Somehow noone gets this.

I wonder what will comrades in Bruxelles come up with. According to the rules in Slovak parliament, they can vote about the same thing only after a half year.

I'm proud slovakia said: FUCK YOU, YOU FUCKING CUNTS!

Again. Whose money is saved in banks?? Who owns bailed out banks?

[Grace]

Hmm. Chris. Not going to pretend to be an expert on this but you seem to adopt a narrow mindset. As with every group of such caliber, this will have its advantages and disadvantages. Slovakia for instance may find an advantage of stability by being a part of it, but also have to sacrifice a certain percentage of independence (Obviously neither example is true, but they are just that - examples.)

Slovakia has the right to disagree with the notion that all of these countries should be paying to bail out Greece. Especially given that Slovakia itself is in debt and attempting to get out of that debt. This comes along with being a part of the group -> one of the advantages is that they have the right to deny or oppose any options that do not benefit them. In reality, if this whole thing gets passed it costs them billions of dollars which sets the economy back several years, the trade off itself will stall the economy and the extra interest incurred from the increased debt will compound the issue.

So while it might - in the long run - benefit certain countries such as France and Germany, for countries that are in debt the chances are that this will be a costly endeavor even in the long term. And Greece didn't get into debt by accident, it's probably just going to go straight back into the rabbit hole and the whole situation will have been a waste of time.

In my opinion, the natural order of things suggests that if a country cannot support itself, it dissolves either into smaller countries or is enveloped by those around it. This works and ensures that only countries with the ability to sustain themselves remain as countries. However in the modern age change is feared too much so this will never happen.

[milagros]

Again. Whose money is saved in banks?? Who owns bailed out banks?

Banks are privately owned companies. According to the rules in the most european countries, the state they are registered in gives the licence to the banks, is responsible for checking whether the bank is healthy and guarantees for 100% (90% in some countries) of money
If any bank in Germany bankrupted, all the actives of the banks would be paid to cover the money people had there and the rest would be paid by German tax-payers. Such situation happened in Slovakia 10 years ago and some banks were bailed out. Our country had to borrow the money to pay for it. Also we had to sell (privatize) big monopolies (gas, electricity, ..) and sold them to the private or even public (powerplants to italian ENEL for example) to pay for it. Italy or Portugal have huge amount of gold that could pay for all their debts. Why the fuck can't they do it? Oh I know, they don't have to, everybody else will pay for it.

[Chris]

Again. Whose money is saved in banks?? Who owns bailed out banks?

Banks are privately owned companies. According to the rules in the most european countries, the state they are registered in gives the licence to the banks, is responsible for checking whether the bank is healthy and guarantees for 100% (90% in some countries) of money
If any bank in Germany bankrupted, all the actives of the banks would be paid to cover the money people had there and the rest would be paid by German tax-payers. Such situation happened in Slovakia 10 years ago and some banks were bailed out. Our country had to borrow the money to pay for it. Also we had to sell (privatize) big monopolies (gas, electricity, ..) and sold them to the private or even public (powerplants to italian ENEL for example) to pay for it. Italy or Portugal have huge amount of gold that could pay for all their debts. Why the fuck can't they do it? Oh I know, they don't have to, everybody else will pay for it.

Banks don't have enough assets to pay all their clients if they are Greek stocks. With Dexia I think it's ok that governments buy their assets for like 5bn euros, instead of hoping that most 80bn of deposits will be payed up, if bank files bankruptcy. And Dexia isn't considered big. Remember that most if not all government help for banks has to be payed back to government or another way to save them is nationalization. We are not talking about small banks, but huge multinational financial institutions. When of them went bankrupt we still have crisis because of it after 3 years.

[milagros]

private profits, public losses

and yeah, svk voted yes today (even though it is against our constitution to vote for the same thing twice) after some changes in the government and agreed elections in march
we will see soon how teh whole system crashes in a year or two, this time really properly with everyone involved, not just Greece or Portugal

[culinko]

[Lousku]

I don't hev any money, I'm happey.

[abruzzi]

but your fellow citizens need money and are sad
therefore as a fellow citizen you should be sad that they are not happy