Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Discuss, argue, whine, talk but not about Elma.

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J-sim
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Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by J-sim »

I was just wondering what other games elma players are proficient at and competing in. It seems like all of us share some kind of sensibility for certain games and share some skill sets atleast. I suspect the really good players have most in common skillwise.

So some guys are probably just good at anything they play. But I would just like to hear what people play, how competitive they are (ie. at which level) and then try to get some kind of a list.
Some games that I remember mans playing:
zweq, Orcc - Ballance
Jeppe - Starcraft
8-Ball - Various speedruns?
anpdad - DOOM
adi, roope, nom, Koopa (who else?) - Minigolf

Then theres non-video games like Rubik's and Chess, maybe that could also be listed.

And then I couldn't remember more. So add more and discuss what kind of skills are needed in the games you play and what the similarities are to elma or whatever you like.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Tigro »

Travian :)
Being in an ally which made World Wonder. Is that competetive enough?
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by roope »

Quite some League of Legends / HoN / DotA players too o,o
(im with lol)
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Grace »

Me and some friends are about to start playing competitive Dota 2 and i've been one of the best Guitar Hero players in Australia for a long time.

I'm overall ranked 2nd (?) on ScoreHero out of all Australians.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by FinMan »

Played Travian for 6 years, I stopped at the top basically as it needed too much of my night time. Could play some more when some good servers start but at least not right away. :f

Aiming to start some new game on January when I will have some more time, let's see what it will bring, having some choices with some skillbase in mind.. :o
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Thundr- »

I used to play World of Warcraft competitavely in terms of hardcore hardmode raiding: server first kills, world top dps lists, etc, but stopped in 2011, planning on making a comeback for next expansion though at least for a while. You need some broad knowledge in all classes and skills of every single character in the game to be efficient at hardmode raiding. My role was always recruiting and providing theorycrafting for everyone, and some, but not always, raidleading. Teamwork skills are the most crucial feature needed here and some really decent understand of your own character in particular.

Also played a lot of Doom 1+2 nightmare speedruns, was a while ago now though. The only skill needed really is persistence and some decent aiming and memorizing of spawn points and the works.

Counter Strike 10+ years ago, been in some tournaments. Not much of that now though, still play a lot of FPS games in general. Mostly just aiming skills needed and some general understanding of movement and level.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Tigro »

I played Settlers of Catan competetively, 12th on National Championships. My 2 friends qualified to European Champs from 1st and 2nd place.
(I know, it is not a PC gaming, but whateva. It is a game. And it was competetive)

Played Diablo II PvP, sometimes good enough, sometimes sucked.

On Colour Bind, I had almost every level time in top10 in the world as well. Didn´t play it for quite a long time now...
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by culinko »

i've been playing on some Lineage II private servers (czech ones, rpg-club, aria gaming, l2final). countless hours of no-life in the past (slept ~10 hours total in the first week, waking up at 3 am just for epic raids and such shit). first noblesses, heroes, etc. (except rpg-club where i got in the top clan later, but met cool international people:P). i know it's just private servers, but was feeling megagood. nowadays it's just for fun with friends (the ones i've found through the servers), even though it's still grinding (but much less). that game is something special to me, this is the only game (except elma) which i've played for many years, many hours a day.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Zweq »

I have a tendency to try to be competitive in every game I try, but I think elma is the flagship if you are interested in speedrunning + 'world records' games. It has 6 buttons for input, but still there is this 3-10 year learning curve, and during the learning we are not talking about some 0.01 lame improvements like in 99.99% of other games, we are talking 10+ second improvements. Due to that I just give up all on most of the höyling games because it's easy to get semi-decent very quickly and then it's just about the 0.01s.

And then there is the elma editor, where you just have to draw a few line segments and dats it... In other games creating even a very basic map will take several hours, the time required to make a masterpese in elma editor. I think we often forget about the editor of elma (SIMPLICITY OF DATA STRUCTURE + 2D) while praising the gameplay.

I tried Nimbus but it was extremely höyl-oriented and tricks and styles felt artificial and pretentious. I tried spectraball, very good game which surprisingly had a learning curve in finding routes and small tricks, but quite poor maps, no editor, no community. I tried trackmania 2 canyon and stadium(never tried the original trackmaniA), very good games but höyl-oriented and only idiath 20 sec maps on all servers, style maps are not created, and if one of those accidently comes by on a server the players massvote next map. I guess that's all I tried in the last few years. Ye I played ballance million years ago, that had both extremely simple gameplay and very good physics simulation, so in a way it was similar to elma.

Then there are the other games that don't have a timer or score running on top or are 'pvp'. Dont like any for competitiveness, just chill
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Orcc »

Some 10 years ago I played Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory at quite high level. Not teh national team level, but okiz European level. Like any FPS game ET also is much about aiming, but you also need to know quite a lot about the game mechanics and hitboxes. If you just move your mouse to chase the head of the enemy, you'll pretty much suck at duels. Also it's different from for example CS, since the game is running continuously instead of being round-based. Needs moar awareness of whate is going on at certain time.

Since ET is using Quake engine, it allows for some quite sick trickjumping. Teh I tried learning, but never really mastered it, even though it looks dame easy. In some maps the jumps can give quite nice advantages. My old clanmates hev made this video so you can check out what I mean.

In some 2001-2003 I played Runescape quite a lot, that was one of the stupidest things I've ever done, sach waste of time. Very little skill needed, just dedication. Maybe a little thinking to find the most efficient ways of leveling.

Travian is quite an interesting case. It really has a lot of depth and mind games to it when it comes to fighting wars and arranging alliance-wide operations. The game has big problems though, the biggest ones being irl money giving too much advantage, huge time consumingness (around the clock) and idiot end game. Usually the best players are those who can put the most time into the game, there are only few things the really require skill (for example sending multiple attack waves at a certain second). Braining is required surprisingly lot though. Could go on a long time about this game, but I guess nobody orka read.
Tigro wrote:Travian :)
Being in an ally which made World Wonder. Is that competetive enough?
Nat really, it's kinda something almost anyone can do.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by kuchitsu »

Thundr- wrote:Also played a lot of Doom 1+2 nightmare speedruns, was a while ago now though. The only skill needed really is persistence and some decent aiming and memorizing of spawn points and the works.
Cool, did you ever publish any demos?

I too speedrun Doom sometimes, mostly fanmade levels I like. - http://doomedsda.us/player319lmps.html I'm not very competitive though, I'm just trying to make good looking demos to have some fun and to sort of "pay back" to the author who entertained me with his creation. But there were a few cases when I tried really hard to beat someone's time, av.wad map01 is one example, spent some 10 hours on it (almost non-stop, I don't like interrupting my recording sessions because I can't get the level out of my head, and once I do, it's hard to get back in the right mindset).

btw I fucking love how Doom has a central demo database with like 98% of all publically released demos. That's just so convenient compared to the elma scene.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Igge »

Zweq wrote:I have a tendency to try to be competitive in every game I try, but I think elma is the flagship if you are interested in speedrunning + 'world records' games. It has 6 buttons for input, but still there is this 3-10 year learning curve, and during the learning we are not talking about some 0.01 lame improvements like in 99.99% of other games, we are talking 10+ second improvements. Due to that I just give up all on most of the höyling games because it's easy to get semi-decent very quickly and then it's just about the 0.01s.
This is so true, and I hadn't really thought about it that way before. Take levels like freefall or steppes for instance. They're 10-second levels, but still it might take you years until you manage to finish them, even though the style is always there to be done. And it's not like it's about luck either; good players will do those shortcuts consistently and quickly. Still, it might take someone who has played the game for many years a long time to even make a slow finish using the same style. And all this, like you said, in a game that has 6 buttons for input, and in a level that takes 10 seconds to finish. And if you take freefall, that one shortcut means a difference of 20 seconds on your total time. A third of a minute! If you then consider levels like Ramp Frenzy and the likes you realize that there really is no "plateauing" in this game, and that you can always cut significant time no matter how long you have played for.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by J-sim »

Elma does seem to have this special mix of hand-eye coordination with puzzle elements (in lack of a better term) in an on the fly flow that is probably quite unique in how it's balanced. Some of the games Zweq mentions come the cloesest to this feel. (Nimbus I also tried and enjoyed for a bit and then just felt it wasn't gonna be a long lasting game for me.) I guess speedrunning in 2d platformers and fps' can have some of that same feel but just not to the same degree.

When reading about some of you guys preferences for other competitive games it's also kind of fun how it translates a bit to how i see different players elma skills. Like Markku mentioned Deadly Rooms of Death - a puzzle game - on IRC not surprisingly whereas Haruhi is more into straight hand-eye coordination with Guitar Hero, kind of like a first finish vs hoyla dichotomy (I'm not really sure if Haruhi is a good example here, but you get the idea).

I never really understood playing RPG's competitively, but then again I've never really played any of the multiplayer ones.

@Tigro, Settlers sounds like a lot of fun. I play quite a bit of board games myself, but I haven't really gone so far with one game to make it competitive outside of just our gaming group. If I were to try and go for playing a board game at a high level I think I would try Agricola.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Igge »

Funny what you're saying. Now that I think about it I love FFs because of the added pressure, and in another favorite game of mine, Counter-strike, there's no better feeling than being the last one on your team, knowing that everyone is counting on you and watching you play. Those moments translate pretty well into the pressure of being spied in an FF. Also, when it comes to normal battles I'll always prefer the seemingly random levels where finding tricks and styles is key, which translates well into my love for puzzle games. Likewise, I don't care much for hoylas, and I've never been a fan of grinding games such as guitar hero or games like that.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Kopaka »

Dabbled a bit in CS a long time ago, though it was mostly at IRL lans with friends and never really reached any mention worthy skill level.

Couple years ago I was somewhat serious in Worms Reloaded. It was and is pretty nab infested which made it a bit annoying when the others either randomly ganged up on you or didn't attack you at all making it really easy. I got pretty good compared to most people you encounter online and good with the rope. Then they changed the physics of the rope to make it more like older version, but failed completely at that. So my skill with it was reset and it still wasn't like older versions, but just weird. That sort of made me give up on it.

So I started playing the older version Worms Armageddon, which has a more skilled community centered around the game type shopper, in which rope using is "enforced". Played that a lot for a while and became decent at that, but eventually got bored of the endless 3-4 player pick up games. There's no other sort of competiveness in the form or more organised competitions. Reloaded has a leadboard for 1on1 matches, but it's only based on number of wins, so it's all about playing a lot. Still play a bit now and then both version, but not much. Recently tried out the new version Clan Wars but it's pretty yucky. The developers seems incapable of understanding what the player base likes, ie. making the popular shopper game type impossible to set up in Reloaded.

Last year or so I've been doing raiding in Star Wars The Old Republic somewhat seriously. In itself it's cooperative, you play against AI, but as thundr- said there's competitiveness in the form of server first kills, world top dps lists. The guild I play in is not overly concerned with the competitiveness of it, but while I've been there we were first on server to finish a raid in 16 man hardmode last spring, and I've been on a few dps top lists now and then.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Chris »

I used to be quite good at Tony Hawks Pro Skater 3. I think I still can easily make a video of 100 or 200 millions combo.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Hosp »

I played MapleStory from 2005-2010 very actively. Still at least once a year play it for 1-2 weeks even though it started getting worse like late 2007 and now it's just sad when I enter the new versions. I played quite seriously but I was nowhere near the highest level people, was more about merchanting and getting mega gear for my level.
I used to play PCW's in CS 1.6 with some friends in 2010 maybe but it didn't last long because elma.
atm I play WoW (Wotlk pserver, molten wow 1x exp) but I have no intention of becoming pro like my brothers were.
Would be cool to find some new game instead of normal cycle like:

elma, all the time but varies on how motivated I am, atm close to zero motivation because WoW
cs 1.6, return to this like 2 times a year for some week, play just some csdm or public stuff, would like to play nice pcw's again but since nobody I know play cs 1.6 that will be quite hard. (most people I know play PS3 or XBOX 360 and play games like GTA or CoD, and the few who plays cs, play cs:s or cs:go, I will get GO in late december but I doubt I will start playing it a lot.)
MS ye I return look at the new updates and mourn the game for a week or two, max a month and this year I played a few private servers that were meant to be like original old maplestory but
it's not that fun when there's like on average 30 people online and my friend on that server who was also the highest level on the server for the most of the time until he got banned for having hacked in some potions.
Then ofc on such a low populated server with the gayest admin ever just removing stuff for the sake of pissing off people I quit that too.
Tried a few other ones but then I started playing Vanilla WoW with Lousku then there were FEM13 and I got mega motivated for Elma and forgot about WoW.
I guess I really didn't have anything of worth to say in this topic.
Most Elmans are prodigys that are the best in the world at something or at least very good at everything, so it's quite tough to live up to that here. oh and I also played a bit LoL in 2010 for 2 months but I guess elma interupted.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by anpdad »

Well, i've always used to attempt to play at high skill level no matter what game i was playing at that moment. Nowadays, my mentality is of a tired 60yo man, so i tend to simply lazily waste time casually playing most games, or even watching streams instead of playing myself.

Couple silly games that i remember the best:

-Lots and lots of q1,q2,q3. I started with speedrunning - my TT for q1 was 12:3x or so, i even have a notebook somewhere in my room with all my times written up, and you could see the progression cuz i was using a pen and had to type new times without removing the previous ones; and after a while, draw newer tables, after the older ones had become too messy. Then came the era of botmatches, then LAN deathmatching most of the time cuz i only had dialup back then, which was atrociously expensive. I ended up winning a local q3 tournament though, yey.

-HOMM 3. I still love the first 3 games of the series, but the most played one was the third one. We used to play it each day on impossible difficulty with my cellmate in university hostel (coop against AI). Also played against other guys, 2vs2 matches. Nothing really serious, but skillcap in that game isn't exactly high i think anyway.

-Minesweeper in winxp. Max field size (24x30 iirc?), the goal is to beat the game with the highest amount of mines. That was just a dumb competition with my irl friend. We both got up to 230 mines, after that there's just too much luck involved - due to high density of mines you have to rely on sheer luck 5-10 times in each attempt and we got bored. That was a stupid competition anyway, the luck factor increased exponentially while the skill doesn't raise at all after the first day of playing. Should've speedran prolly instead.

-Doom nowadays. There're some really good source ports for it, each has its own purpose. Few attempt to keep vanilla compatibility and hence demorecording capabilities + TAS, other ports go into the opposite direction and add up modern stuff, and there are also multiplayer ones, like eol. With a shitton of game modes to boot, including crazy stuff where each player controls a hero, who can't do anything but run&jump around and spawn his own army, and collect various types of mana from the corpses to be able to spawn more and better minions. Epic strategic stuff. I've slowly gravitated towards playing PvE again, namely the survival mode, which is basically you having limited amount of lives (usually 1-3) to beat the map and if you die, you have to restart from the beginning. Here's one of the mapsets we play, showing off the starting rooms of few maps: VID. Warning: everything but 720p looks like ass. I intentionally play it like if i've never seen it before to show how overwhelming it can be. Few min into the vid i enable cheats and fly around a couple of maps to show more. Then i disable them to goof around and enable again. You can basically watch the first 2-3min or so and close the thing if you actually decide to click the link at all. Most maps take 1-3hours to beat and include traps that lock you in for a long time and are designed around item respawn. It's really fun to solve the maps and pull off difficult strategies, feels good. There're only 2 people in the world right now who've beaten all maps from this mapset in duo. Basically these are zehills of doom. Most ppl hate them >:D
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by axxu »

Before elma I hoyled Target Test minigame in super smash bros melee. It was very hoylable game. I got called a liar on finnish gaming forum when i pasted my times there, i think the biggest one was tilt.tv back then :P

A video for reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLoI1Xue9pM

These are tool assisted runs, but real wrs are not too far from them
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Hosp »

Nice vid axxu. Would be more fun watching a vid like this for SSM N64 though.
e: found an old one
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Labs »

Orcc wrote:Some 10 years ago I played Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory at quite high level. Not teh national team level, but okiz European level. Like any FPS game ET also is much about aiming, but you also need to know quite a lot about the game mechanics and hitboxes. If you just move your mouse to chase the head of the enemy, you'll pretty much suck at duels. Also it's different from for example CS, since the game is running continuously instead of being round-based. Needs moar awareness of whate is going on at certain time.

Since ET is using Quake engine, it allows for some quite sick trickjumping. Teh I tried learning, but never really mastered it, even though it looks dame easy. In some maps the jumps can give quite nice advantages. My old clanmates hev made this video so you can check out what I mean.
I played ET too, also had clan etc. Not quite high level but mid+. I always liked to be engineer ingame, which have many tactics thing to do if wanne play at high level. Too bad nowadays there is that many idiot mods, also every third idiot player using cheats, which made me quit.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by A.K.B. »

I used to hoyl Target Test and board the platforms in Smash Bros. 64. I had tied some WR and I think even held one for a while. Was great fun!
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by 8-ball »

Yeah I used to speedrun games that hold some sentimental value for me (mostly). Have a few speedruns on SDA (Commander Keen). While you do develop some muscle memory and skill in such games with time and practice, for me the fun lies in finding creative time savers, sequence breaks, glitches, figuring out all the risk vs time saved trade-offs and such. Planning is the fun part, actual running and recording is too tedious for me right now. Racing these games in real time with others on SpeedRunsLive is fun but for the games I play it's hard to find opponents.

I love Quake Live but only play very casually and watch pro tournaments a lot.

Used to collect Kongregate badges quite hardcore a few years back, was like 10 badges away from them all at one point. That got boring.

Played in several top british Haxball leagues a year back or so, did pretty well. Then it got boring.

Played RuneScape on and off from 2005, with the pure aim to get better than anyone else in staking duels and make real $$$ off it. Made several grand before too many people picked up on what I was doing and it started to become too luck based.

But if I play anything nowadays it's usually a stupid flash/browser game and only because I don't want to do something else I'm supposed to be doing.

I'm way too overwhelmed with IRL stuff to be playing anything now really.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Madness »

These are some of the games I used to play competitively with my younger brother:

Diablo 1 (best game back then, spent tons of hours of my childhood on this one)
One Must Fall 2097 (1v1 fighting game)
Xplosive (old Bomberman-like game)
Liero
Dune 2000
FlatOut 2
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Tigro »

Madness wrote:One Must Fall 2097 (1v1 fighting game)
Dune 2000
THOSE GAMES!!!
Mah childhuud!
OMF is so imba game! Jaguar and Flail and Nova and Pyros! :D
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by abruzzi »

tigro ur the tiger from winnie the pooh, now i got it wher you have your adhd from
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Dynamo »

I play StepMania as many probably already know.
I'm still quite competitive in it too...have some videos :p

4-key
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGyW-bPhM_g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C37lP-POGKA

6-key (don't play as often)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vouiae614og
Total Time: 38:35,14
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by gimp »

any backgammon players in elma scene?
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by infected »

used to play alot of Rock Band 2 and 3 at a very high level. was world rank ~50ish in leaderboards on xbox expert drums on both games, also decent guitarist with alot of 100%. used to play very serius 3v3 and 5v5 in WoW during burning crusade, won 5v5 in my battlegroup and placed top10 in 3v3. but seems like i lost my patience of hoyling other games than elma the last years, so mostly playing casual when i play games now.

still enjoy to hoyl Trials HD and Trials Evo on xbox tho, Platinum on 95% of the tracks (dlc included) so far there. but getting frustrated to easy when trying to go for long gaming sessions
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Grace »

infected wrote:used to play alot of Rock Band 2 and 3 at a very high level. was world rank ~50ish in leaderboards on xbox expert drums on both games, also decent guitarist with alot of 100%.
:] COME AT ME BRO. #rank2RB3Guitar
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Chris »

gimp wrote:any backgammon players in elma scene?
I used to play it on various mobile phones, never against real human.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by abruzzi »

any who-burps-louder players here?
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by A.K.B. »

abruzzi wrote:any who-burps-louder players here?
I often do this with my friends. My dad reckons that we would all lose against him.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Lousku »

Bismuth is at AGDQ, running Minecraft on the last day.

http://gamesdonequick.com/schedule
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by ElrondMcBong »

Nice, plz make a picture with YSG, that would be so awesome :D
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Tigro »

I wanna see that Bastion done in 17 mins!
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Dynamo »

Congrats Bismuth on getting the Minecraft WR during the marathon! I watched the run and it was great :)
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Igge »

I've never played minecraft but that run was really entertaining! Vod here: http://www.twitch.tv/speeddemosarchives ... =13h20m20s
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

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who's that guy going all porn like with a Barry White voice " oh baby" .. " oh yeah baby" .. "yeah baby"..
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Orcc »

We figured he's Memphis, since when he played Goldeneye he kept saying "ya" and "solid"
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Bludek »

That Minecraft run was extremely sickly done and entertaining for me. I like speedruns in other games too, but when it is a game I've played (and Minecraft is one of them), it is like ten times the fun.

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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Bismuth »

Wow, thanks for the kind words guys. The run went really well and I was extremely happy about it, especially that 1-second rollercoaster of emotions at the very end. :D
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Grace »

Already gratsed you on FB but sick run bro. Especially enjoyed the arrows in the dragon fight and the ender pearl throws.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Mats »

Runescape: You last logged in 959 days ago
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by HatCat »

Trials HD too. (gametag: frozenCat32)

I bought Evo but did not like it has much, although I've platted the TYM tournament. first fault at the end of Inferno, mind you :p although was so stressed that when I passed under the bridge with just 2 faults, where was a blood taste in my mouth. heartrate and sweating, still lots of fun but I still have a more-tender spot in my heart for HD.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Ruben »

Rome: Total War

Been part of the Sith clan on there for almost 6 years now, haven't played in 3. The game is sadly dead so, no more RTW (((
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Mats »

RTA: Rome Total Annihilated :wink:
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Ruben »

Mats wrote:RTA: Rome Total Annihilated :wink:
RTAA: Rooster Teeth Animated Adventures.
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Cfilorvy »

I've played the game Pharaoh/Cleopatra on and off since 2000.
Great citybuilding game :)
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Re: Competitive gaming (in other games than elma)

Post by Ruben »

Cfilorvy wrote:I've played the game Pharaoh/Cleopatra on and off since 2000.
Great citybuilding game :)
Yeah great games. I played Caesar III a lot, it's the "original" so it's better. =P
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