religion of peace

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milagros
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Re: religion of peace

Post by milagros »

Madness wrote:1) You actually want to ban a religion on the grounds that some people of that religion are terrorists?
2) Have you heard of Breivik?
3) If you see atheists killing others because of their faith, will you call for a ban on atheism?
1) Islam is not just religion; it is an ideology, which includes law system (sharia), politics, etc.
2) While imprisoned, Breivik has identified himself as a fascist[28] and a national socialist (source wiki :) ) As far as I know, fascist/nazist ideology is illegal, so should islam.
3) i don't think atheists ever killed in the name of no god's existence. They could have killed for various other (idological, or jsut for fun) reasons
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Madness »

Ruben: Okay, I see what you mean. Faith in this context = belief in God = religion = not atheism. But in essence it's the same, one believes something exists, the other one believes it doesn't. The point is that banning a religion would be as absurd as banning atheism - you can't ban anyone's belief.
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Re: religion of peace

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Madness wrote:I agree with everything you said before, but I can't agree on this. Atheism is a belief that God does not exist, not a lack of faith or anything like that. Being an atheist is as preposterous as being religious, because you cannot know whether God exists or not.
i don't think there is actually any true atheist in this sense
based on all the evidence, if the world was designed by a deity (such as the author of the simulation software of the universe), he has absolutely no interest in some entities within the system (such as us) and thus his/hers existence is irrelevant

also based on all evidence, there is no afterlife (which almost all religions rely on)
humans are not any special (except they are a bit smarter) than other animals and there was a continuous transition between other species and humans
thus if humans go to hell/heaven, so do all animals, bacteria, viruses, .. and rocks:) which makes no fucking sense
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Lousku »

Ruben wrote:But christians deeming Islam to be "wrong" or "outdated" is nothing short of hypocrisy.
The main difference between christianity and islam is that muslims don't interpret their books. It's the literal word of god and you can't twist it around. The Bible bans alterations too but at least modern day christians don't care. They cherry pick all the time to suit the changing society. That's obviously better for society overall. I think it's fair to say islam is far more outdated.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: religion of peace

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Madness wrote:Atheism is a belief that God does not exist, not a lack of faith or anything like that. Being an atheist is as preposterous as being religious, because you cannot know whether God exists or not.
Huh? What do you call a lack of faith/religion then? This is like deeming sport so ubiquitous that you'd refuse to accept that some people don't do any sport, and saying therefore non-golfing is a sport.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Madness »

I didn't make this definition up. If you believe that people cannot know whether God exists or not, then you are an agnostic. Or simply non-religious.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Ruben »

Madness wrote:I didn't make this definition up. If you believe that people cannot know whether God exists or not, then you are an agnostic. Or simply non-religious.
Non-religious, aka atheist. It's funny how religious people are so used to their way of thinking that they somehow can't fathom that people live without religion. All people are born atheists, then religion is weighed down on them by their parents and their communities.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Lousku »

Madness wrote:I didn't make this definition up. If you believe that people cannot know whether God exists or not, then you are an agnostic. Or simply non-religious.
Agnosticism isn't exclusive with theism or atheism. You can be an agnostic atheist ("I don't know but I don't think there is a god") or an agnostic theist ("I don't know but I think there is a god"), but it's also pretty fair to be a gnostic atheist ("I know there is no god"), because as far as knowledge goes, you can know there is no god just as well as you can know there are no gravity apples in real life. The nonexistence of anything can't be known to a bigger extent.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: religion of peace

Post by culinko »

milagros wrote:i don't see why that should be the case, i don't see anyone in europe killing random people in the name of jesus
Do you really think terrorism is only exclusive to islam?
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Re: religion of peace

Post by culinko »

Ruben wrote:All people are born atheists
I don't think this is true. Atheism claims that there is no deity. You can't know whether there is any deity when you are born, therefore you can't be an atheist. However, you can be an agnostic/non-religious.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Lousku »

Well this is getting to be a pretty boring semantics discussion but atheism can also just mean simply "not believing in a god". Everyone is also born a non-golfer.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: religion of peace

Post by kuchitsu »

Instead of these fuzzy terms imo just say "I believe / I don't believe in god" and then there will be no confusion.

Or wait, what's the definition of "believe" anyway?

And what exactly is a "definition"?

More importantly, what is "is"?
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Ruben »

kuchitsu wrote:Instead of these fuzzy terms imo just say "I believe / I don't believe in god" and then there will be no confusion.

Or wait, what's the definition of "believe" anyway?

And what exactly is a "definition"?

More importantly, what is "is"?
Getting way too philosophical now, Kuchi xD
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Re: religion of peace

Post by milagros »

culinko wrote:
milagros wrote:i don't see why that should be the case, i don't see anyone in europe killing random people in the name of jesus
Do you really think terrorism is only exclusive to islam?
no, but a large majority of religiously motivated terrorist attacks are muslim

terrorism is not the only problem with islam, saudi arabia is a good example to show that the problem is much deeper
islam has a great potential to turn a country into a shithole
the progress is not inevitable - all islamic countries slowly degraded since islam reached it's potential in 11th century in terms of conquering new countries
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Re: religion of peace

Post by culinko »

milagros wrote:islam has a great potential to turn a country into a shithole
This is not exclusive to islam, but can also be said about other religions or ideologies.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Madness »

milagros wrote:
Madness wrote:I agree with everything you said before, but I can't agree on this. Atheism is a belief that God does not exist, not a lack of faith or anything like that. Being an atheist is as preposterous as being religious, because you cannot know whether God exists or not.
i don't think there is actually any true atheist in this sense
There are some, but I believe most people who claim to be atheists misinterpret that word. It's popular to use different words interchangeably.
milagros wrote:also based on all evidence, there is no afterlife (which almost all religions rely on)
humans are not any special (except they are a bit smarter) than other animals and there was a continuous transition between other species and humans
thus if humans go to hell/heaven, so do all animals, bacteria, viruses, .. and rocks:) which makes no fucking sense
I agree that none of this makes sense and I don't see why anyone should live again after death. But then again, our life doesn't make sense either and yet we are here. :)
Lousku wrote:
Madness wrote:I didn't make this definition up. If you believe that people cannot know whether God exists or not, then you are an agnostic. Or simply non-religious.
Agnosticism isn't exclusive with theism or atheism. You can be an agnostic atheist ("I don't know but I don't think there is a god") or an agnostic theist ("I don't know but I think there is a god"), but it's also pretty fair to be a gnostic atheist ("I know there is no god"), because as far as knowledge goes, you can know there is no god just as well as you can know there are no gravity apples in real life. The nonexistence of anything can't be known to a bigger extent.
I agree.
Lousku wrote:Well this is getting to be a pretty boring semantics discussion but atheism can also just mean simply "not believing in a god". Everyone is also born a non-golfer.
It's the same thing. If you don't believe that God exists, then you believe that God doesn't exist.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Ruben »

Madness wrote:It's the same thing. If you don't believe that God exists, then you believe that God doesn't exist.
I'm sorry but that's stupid. Do you also "believe" that Frodo doesn't exist? Do you also "believe" that Harry Potter doesn't exist? Do you also "believe" that Darth Vader doesn't exist? How about Donald Duck, do you spend your time believing he doesn't exist? Do I have to have faith in the inexistance of Narnia?

You don't have to prove that something doesn't exist. Not believing in something is not the same as believing in something's inexistance.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Madness »

It's not about having to prove anything or spending your time thinking about it. If you don't believe something exists, you believe it doesn't exist, it's as simple as that. What's your problem with it? :D
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Ruben »

Madness wrote:It's not about having to prove anything or spending your time thinking about it. If you don't believe something exists, you believe it doesn't exist, it's as simple as that. What's your problem with it? :D
I have a big problem with this! Well, not really, but I do disagree (:
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Lousku »

Madness wrote:It's not about having to prove anything or spending your time thinking about it. If you don't believe something exists, you believe it doesn't exist, it's as simple as that. What's your problem with it? :D
Just teh:
Madness wrote:Being an atheist is as preposterous as being religious, because you cannot know whether God exists or not.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: religion of peace

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milagros wrote: 2) While imprisoned, Breivik has identified himself as a fascist[28] and a national socialist (source wiki :) ) As far as I know, fascist/nazist ideology is illegal, so should islam.
i dont think this is true in vast majority of countries.

big problem with islam is not only that muslims commit terrorists attacks but that there also exists a considerable support for such acts within the community. depending on country you can find figures as high as 20-60% of muslim population that say its ok to commit terrorists acts against civilian targets. even in secular countries a big % of muslims would like to live under a sharia law and 36% of young british muslims think that those converting to other religion should be executed. there exists good muslism ofc but if you compare their thinking and beliefs to secular west there exists a vast difference and extremist thinking is a lot more common
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Tigro »

I was about to write that stuff I promised in June, but reading this tropic makes me so damn sad :( so I am not going to add oil to the flames (that much).
From the above replies I can identify with milagros mostly.
Humans can adapt to anything, even death. Watching news every day with "who died today?" attitude is becoming pretty basic.

Considering believing/non-believing/atheism/religion/agnosticism, we really should define what means what. Plus I (as one of a few 'religious' people here) have to add that there is even more division in theism/gnosticism. If you just believe that 'god exists', it doesn't really make any difference. Pure belief in existence of some divine person doesn't have to affect your life in any way. Until you specify what kind of god it is and what will he do if you behave/misbehave etc.
To someone (Ruben?) here who said that God is evil and he doesn't want to be in heaven: You then have no idea what hell looks like.
And even if God was evil, then what? Who are you to say anything against him? You are just an ant under his foot and your life is totally under his control and he can do whatever he wants with you. So deal with it. Then you either believe that he wants the best for you, or you think he is evil. And thinking he is evil seems to me like being a kid in store who wants a lollipop and a parent won't buy him so the kid thinks his parent is evil; while the truth is that parent doesn't want his kid to have cavities or whatever.

Another thought on someone (madness?) saying that if we ban islam, we should ban christianity (and other religions) too:
I was like wtf when I read that. If you think it would be 'fair' and 'just' because 'equality' would be mainained, it's just plain stupid. If you apply this kind of policy everywhere, it would be total chaos and anarchy.

Two points made, I quote Aristotle: "Tolerance ('égalité everywhere!') and apathy ('meh, another 77 dead in Kabul') are the last virtues of a dying society."

Our society is dying, guys. What are we going to do with it apart from arguing with each other and whining?
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Re: religion of peace

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i feel sorry for how brainwashed you are
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Hosp »

Need not worry mans. The newspaper told me that there has never been a safer time than now and if worry, you're nazi. So don't worry.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Madness »

Tigro: There's so much evidence humans evolved from apes and you still believe in this Adam and Eve fairy tale? Come on, that's much more stupid than banning a religion that supports slavery, rape and paedophilia.
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Re: religion of peace

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what if adam and eve were apes? did you ever think about that? but to be accurate humans did not evolve from apes, we just have a common ancestor
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Madness »

They are portrayed as intelligent human beings in the Bible. The common ancestor was an ape-like creature, it doesn't really matter what you call it, everyone knows it's not the modern ape.

Also, according to the Bible dinosaurs lived at the same time as humans...
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Ruben »

Madness wrote:They are portrayed as intelligent human beings in the Bible. The common ancestor was an ape-like creature, it doesn't really matter what you call it, everyone knows it's not the modern ape.

Also, according to the Bible dinosaurs lived at the same time as humans...
The Bible was outdated 1000 years ago. It's time to retire that atrocios piece of garbage.
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Re: religion of peace

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Madness wrote:it doesn't really matter what you call it, everyone knows it's not the modern ape.
no they dont, its very common to hear "if humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes?"
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Ruben »

Vermin Supreme wrote:
Madness wrote:it doesn't really matter what you call it, everyone knows it's not the modern ape.
no they dont, its very common to hear "if humans evolved from apes, why are there still apes?"
Monkeys. People think we evolved from monkeys, and that is incorrect, but we have a common ancestor with monkeys. We are all apes.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by kuchitsu »

Uhh. Are there no cases in the world where kind B evolved from kind A but both kinds can still be found on the planet?
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Re: religion of peace

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kuchitsu wrote:Uhh. Are there no cases in the world where kind B evolved from kind A but both kinds can still be found on the planet?
No, because all species evolve constantly. Species B and C both evolved from A, therefore A does not exist anymore.
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Re: religion of peace

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Weird, is it really so well synchronized all over the world? Can't it progress in one part of the world but stall in another? Or can't some population split into two species where one keeps evolving and another lives fine as it is? Or something. Imo it's not so obvious but dunno.
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Re: religion of peace

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doggo came from wolf and wolves are still around
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Ruben »

Vermin Supreme wrote:doggo came from wolf and wolves are still around
Dogs did not evolve naturally, they were artificially bred from wolves.
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Re: religion of peace

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Ruben wrote:
Vermin Supreme wrote:doggo came from wolf and wolves are still around
Dogs did not evolve naturally, they were artificially bred from wolves.
wonder vtf is natural evolve and artificial breeding. Species simply adapt... it's like input -> boom boom boom -> output. Input = environment, boom boom boom = adaptation and time, output = new generations, of which those that fit the best, survive

never read anything i just thought smth like that is how it works. dont see how it's artificial if mans throw piece of bone to a wolf around campfire, doges hapened cuz their ancestors were brave enough to get closer to mans
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Ruben »

Zweq wrote:
Ruben wrote:
Vermin Supreme wrote:doggo came from wolf and wolves are still around
Dogs did not evolve naturally, they were artificially bred from wolves.
wonder vtf is natural evolve and artificial breeding. Species simply adapt... it's like input -> boom boom boom -> output. Input = environment, boom boom boom = adaptation and time, output = new generations, of which those that fit the best, survive

never read anything i just thought smth like that is how it works. dont see how it's artificial if mans throw piece of bone to a wolf around campfire, doges hapened cuz their ancestors were brave enough to get closer to mans
Dogs, and in fact almost everything you eat has been manipulated into what they are now. Ask any farmer, it's their job. Most animals are bred to get bigger so you get more meat out of them. Hens are extreme in that regard, they have gotten a lot bigger over the years. Almost no fruit is in their "natural" form, they've all been selectively bred with particulr traits in mind. Our modern cavendish banana is feeling the pain, because the gene pool has diminished to the point where all bananas are essentially clones. One disease can wipe out all the banana trees (of that banana species) on Earth. It has happened before with a strain of the sweet banana, the one which all banana flavoured candy is based on. You know those little black specks in the banana? Those used to be huge and white, and they used to fill the entire fruit, making it essentially unedible. But with selective breeding farmers managed to reduce them to what they are today, although that had some serious reprecussions because they were the seeds, and now bananas are sterile. Bananout.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Zweq »

but it not artificial as long as the fundamentals are the same is my point. i dont know or care about the stories. you call artificial intelligence artificial intelligence because it works fundamentally differently and canot be caled intelligence. if i lock you in a room for 30 years and hit you with spoon in head once every day it not artificial or unnatural, it just a bit difrent environment ;)
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Ruben »

Zweq wrote:but it not artificial as long as the fundamentals are the same is my point. i dont know or care about the stories. you call artificial intelligence artificial intelligence because it works fundamentally differently and canot be caled intelligence. if i lock you in a room for 30 years and hit you with spoon in head once every day it not artificial or unnatural, it just a bit difrent environment ;)
I am one generation, you can't change my genes. But if you breed animals with specific traits, across many generations, you can enhance those traits. All our dog breeds have been created that way, they did not evolve "naturally" so to speak. So to set it apart from natural selection it's called artificial selection.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Zweq »

oke lets say doges were let to run in forests without human interference, dogeballs eating bear was developed meanwhile, he hunts doges and eats their balls and interferes doge evolution. same thing, just because we know what we are doing dosnt make it unnatural or artificial. it doesnt mater who or what interferes or fiddles with the "data"
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Lousku »

It kinda just depends on what you define as species. Of course every generation is different so if you narrow the definition extremely, you can say that species A doesn't exist anymore after 1 generation (of course species are not defined nearly that narrowly, but just to make a point).

If you have a broader definition of the species (as we do), it can still exist even though other species have evolved from it. Species don't always have to adapt so much if their environment is suitable so they might remain within that broad definition of the species. Meanwhile some part of the population can move to a place where it needs different traits so it will evolve outwards from the definition of that species.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Lousku »

Ruben wrote:
kuchitsu wrote:Uhh. Are there no cases in the world where kind B evolved from kind A but both kinds can still be found on the planet?
No, because all species evolve constantly. Species B and C both evolved from A, therefore A does not exist anymore.
That seems nat true. If the environment is suitable, evolution can slow down enough so that every specimen stays within the definition of the species. There are not enough specimens weak enough to be selected away, so overall the species doesn't change.

(sry bongo doublepost, im on fone)
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: religion of peace

Post by milagros »

that's actually very common
it often happens when there is a very large population of some specie, and then some small group get separated due to some event (volcano or something gets flooded), and the new small population often genetically drifts from the large one
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Ruben »

Zweq wrote:oke lets say doges were let to run in forests without human interference, dogeballs eating bear was developed meanwhile, he hunts doges and eats their balls and interferes doge evolution. same thing, just because we know what we are doing dosnt make it unnatural or artificial. it doesnt mater who or what interferes or fiddles with the "data"
No, it still isn't the same, and for two reasons:

1. Artifical selection can be done incredibly quick, over just a couple of generations. Often this can mean taking a wild inedible plant, and turning it into something useful. This is a process know as domestication. Natural selection takes millions of years (although events have occured where species have changed very rapidly).

2. Through artificial selection you can breed traits that are otherwise "undesireable," i.e. traits that would not occur naturally. Such as ridiculously small fragile useless dogs who die from everything. Such a thing would never evolve naturally, because it couldn't survive. The cavendish banana couldn't have evolved naturally by any stretch of the imagination, seeing as it's infertile.

Everything you have ever eaten (apart from maybe some accidental bugs) have been manipulated in this way, and there is a definite difference between artificial and natural selection.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Zweq »

y, mans tried to alter many stufs, i knew this stuf, just wanted show generalized idea of evolution, then dont need any bango terms

you know what ive eaten? stalker........ i doubt shrooms, berries and "wild(?)" fish that i eat quite often have gone through this process you described
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Ruben »

Zweq wrote:y, mans tried to alter many stufs, i knew this stuf, just wanted show generalized idea of evolution, then dont need any bango terms

you know what ive eaten? stalker........ i doubt shrooms, berries and "wild(?)" fish that i eat quite often have gone through this process you described
Well, fish are much, much smaller now than they used to be, mostly because of overfishing. While not intentional, it's still human made. I guess there are some strains that are relatively untouched, but only a few. Most mushrooms and berries you are probably right, but there are domesticated species of these too (such as the champinjong and blueberries). There is a list here of domesticated plants, which may or may not be complete.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Kopaka »

It's really just semantics no? And wether you consider human interference natural or not. I'm pretty sure in any evolution the species are being affected by other species in some way. Humans can just do it quicker because they are somewhat smart and dominates the world.
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Re: religion of peace

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Kopaka wrote:It's really just semantics no? And wether you consider human interference natural or not. I'm pretty sure in any evolution the species are being affected by other species in some way. Humans can just do it quicker because they are somewhat smart and dominates the world.
The same thing is happening, yes, but the manner in which it happens is very different.
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Igge »

I guess one simplified way to put it is that artificial selection is something done on purpose, whereas natural selection has no thought behind it?
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Re: religion of peace

Post by Tigro »

Igge wrote:I guess one simplified way to put it is that artificial selection is something done on purpose, whereas natural selection has no thought behind it?
So once some organism evolves into thoughtful one, there is no more natural selection, only artificial one?
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