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 Post subject: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 02:54 
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Kuski
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A bill was just passed in California where I live that you can identify as non binary. When new social rules are discussed, my philosophy has always been that if what you do does not affect others negatively, you should be allowed to do it. No matter how illogical or crazy something may seem to me, I really don't care if it won't affect my life. So I am wondering, can others identifying as non binary affect me or others in any way? Only thing I can think of is maybe some human resources issue coming up in the work place. I am still undecided on this at the moment. Please convince me!

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 04:43 
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Had to check wiki for exactly what the term means, and I don't see a problem with it. From a pure practical standpoint it seems like a good way to solve the problem of people who don't identify as either gender. I'm sure one of the most common counterarguments will be bs about allowing people to go into the opposite gender public restroom etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 13:24 
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It's bullshit. It makes me angry. Therefore I am negatively affected.

Doing something "just because we can" is absolutely stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 16:02 
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Jesus transformed water into wine "just because he could" so stop this bullshit.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 16:25 
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Tigro wrote:
It makes me angry.
Angry? wtf? I can say I don't really understand htf someone can identify as non-binary gender, therefore I feel kinda uncomfortable about it, but angry?!

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 19:23 
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Tigro wrote:
It's bullshit. It makes me angry. Therefore I am negatively affected.

Doing something "just because we can" is absolutely stupid.


You can get in big argument with this view and honestly it would take 100 years to have that argument, I don't care enough.

All I say is this:

It's not being done "just because we can". There are other reasons for it.

--

Biologically, it's not quite so simple as male or female, as a lot of people think. There are complex relationships between many important hormones that make up "gender" and it's a fairly uneducated view to not believe that there is some interplay between the "Male" standard and "Female" standard.

I often deal with young people (as school teacher) going through period of their life where they are trying to work out who they are. It frustrates me that so many of them feel ashamed or pressured into certain views of themselves. "Ur guy so you must do _____, ur girl so you can't do _______" etc, especially when my heart/brain gets to know these people and finds someone who doesn't fit into these tiny little boxes that are "Male" and "Female". Personally I think the tumblr stuff (where they do shit like "O I actually identify as a spacedragon, you should refer to me as xhe instead of he") is attention seeking, however I am satisfied from both a scientific perspective and a personal perspective that there is SOME wiggle room and it's unhealthy to force people to be boxed into 2 categories.

I agree that it's nice and easy for the vast majority to be in those categories, and for people who don't care, I don't see an issue there, however for those who don't fit quite so easily - it should be okay for them to not feel like an outsider too.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 21:12 
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good post Haruhi, thanks

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 21:44 
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thx Haru... Tigro is such an ignorant being

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 21:52 
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didn't quite understand what gimp wanted to ask, but agree with tigro :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 19 Oct 2017, 23:05 
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what makes a gender is penis or vagina between your legs. If you have this super mega uncommon hormonal disease, then ok, call yourself whatever the hell you want, but that's what, like 0.01% of population?

quit this bs.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 00:53 
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these classifications mean nothing to "usual" human, they only let the minorities feel more comfortable when they have to face ignorant society
there are so many possible variations of whats going on inside humans head that its indeed good LEL from nature that we are divided into 2 sexes.
you say 0,01% population feels nonbinary. so what? you'd like to "punish" such a person from mankind just because its in minority? or because smart conservative priests or pope said so? IT could be as good in human interaction as the remaining 99,99%. let them live in comfort so we can avoid any conflicts.
this way we could eliminate whole society. 0,01% is bald, 0,01% has heterochromia, 0,01% is homo, 0,01% has 30cm dick, 0,01% has tastier ass than feet, 0,01% likes vegetables over spaghetti. youre left with 0% ppl that dont belong to any minority.
all of this is a tiny part of us. this has no influence into what a certain human is like.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 04:24 
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Andry my question is, "if people identify as non binary could it negatively affect me or others in any way?"

I see someone mentioning a bathroom and tigro said it makes him angry. I'd say the bathroom topic is worth delving into. However i don't feel anger is a valid enough reason, unless you would like to elaborate more tigro.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 08:47 
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Tigro wrote:
what makes a gender is penis or vagina between your legs. If you have this super mega uncommon hormonal disease, then ok, call yourself whatever the hell you want, but that's what, like 0.01% of population?

quit this bs.


Intersex is a fully recognised biological sex (and that is beyond argument), and makes up over 0.05% of the global population by itself. Add in any number of trans/hormonal things and it's much higher. Not sure how high so I won't mongo a fake number.

"What makes a gender is penis or vagina between your legs."

This is false. It is not false because of personal views or culture, it is entirely false because you do not have the correct definition of the word "Gender". You are referring to Biological Sex. Gender is actually a linguistic term used to describe classes of morphological constructs, which has been adapted to refer (in the English language) to the social, cultural and personal aspects inferred from having a specific sex.

Further, Biological Sex is NOT determined by a "penis or vagina between the legs", but is determined entirely by the chromosomal makeup of an individual, specifically chromosomal pair #23. As such, there are other confirmed biological sexes that exist beyond male and/or female, such as X (which expresses similar to the typical XX female, but with key differences. Referred to as Turner syndrome), XXY (which expresses somewhere between the typical XX female and XY male, referred to as Klinefelter syndrome). More exist beyond these, like Jacobs syndrome.

Might be good to learn some genetics Tigro because u mayb have a bonus chromosome 21 :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 08:52 
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10-15 years ago we've heard about such things very rarely, but now? Now hardly a day passes without hearing about it. Imo not the theory itself but the strong propaganda and lobby what makes some ppl angry.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 09:00 
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10-15 years ago, rarely heard about people being able to get support for mental health too. It's the reason that people call this sort of politics and media "progressive" - the idea is to progress from where we are to a situation in which some people are better supported, healthier, safer and have more rights.

There is always something. Can EZ draw parallels to women's rights movements, black rights movements in the US/SA/wherever else, Gay rights movements, aboriginal rights/apologists, et cetera.

I am not really activist, but it strongly annoys me when I see someone substantiate their argument against a minority getting access to rights with some argument like "It makes me angry to give them rights!!! They are wrong/disgusting/unnatural" or some bullshit. It maybe affects you if you have some severe homophobia, sure. Doesn't mean you're more important than they are, though.

also, dj/gimp talked on this point a tiny amount:

"I'm sure one of the most common counterarguments will be bs about allowing people to go into the opposite gender public restroom etc."

This is indeed a common counterargument. It's also kinda flawed a bit because people do that anyway. It's hard to argue this point if you are against recognising non-binary gender, because most people argument comes out like:

"It makes me uncomfortable to not have a gender-specific place to go to the toilet."

Which can be very easy to misconstrue as "My comfort is more important than the comfort of a non-binary individual".

Either way, I'm done writing for now until Tigro makes another post for me to shit on.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 12:49 
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jblaze wrote:
0,01% has tastier ass than feet
u wot m8
Haruhi wrote:
until Tigro makes another post for me to shit on.
golden xd

But seriously, about the restrooms, what would the ideal solution be? Have a 3rd toilet for all those who don't clearly associate with male/female, or allow them to use whichever they want? Because the first doesn't seem too practical and in the latter I (or some perv) could then say "well I actually feel 3.8% woman so I feel entitled to use the female restroom". I once entered a women's restroom because I just needed to wash my hands and the men's one was closed so I'd have to go down a couple of floors to find another one. I thought "well I just wanna use the sink no big deal rite? I'll be out in 10sec". But turns out it's a massive fucking deal, because when I was walking out some circa-50 years old woman entered and was like "WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE YOU LIL SHIT CAN YOU READ???? YOU DON'T JUST ENTER THE WOMEN'S RESTROOM FOR FOK'S SAKE". So I'm like
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But yeah, this is a potentially pretty serious social issue, so probably worth discussing.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 13:06 
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http://college.usatoday.com/2016/10/03/ ... -pronouns/

relevant.

Call me Emperor Tigro, because then I feel secure. If you don't call me Emperor, I would be offended and you are the offender and you should be ashamed of yourself, because you would proclaim tolerance and simultaneously be intolerant to my personal needs. I was at the psychologist and even psychiatrist and they say I have a really severe medical issue and that other people should accept it and treat me as who I am, and I am Emperor.

I hate topics where we 'discuss' opinions. Because 'discussing' opinions means there will be conflicting ones, and people are shit at acceptiong others' opinions. I think this all is bs. Go on and mock me. Because today's people are pussies and can't handle shit. Because they are selfish, and all they care about is their own well-being. And whatever it takes, they go for it. And if it violates other's freedom, they just foil it with some tolerance difference LGBTIQSXYZ*.! bullshit to achieve what they want. As jbl said, this 3% of people are vocal like 30% of people. Survey in the US says people think about 30% of Americans are gay. It's all just because they brag and complain about anything that goes on.

I wouldn't give a shit about any of this if people around me wouldn't attack me for my damn opinions. How tolerant is that? I can make myslef a victim very easily. Because by merits of tolerance everyone is smashing into my face I am being treated max intolerantly. But yeah I don't write a damn blogpost about it to complain how life has been unfair to me and how I suffer from other people's opinions and shit.

And I find it funny how people think this is some kind of new great amazing feature, to recognize other "identities" or whatever shit you wanna call that, and people think this is max step forward and yeah it's so good now everyone is being happy and everyone is pleased. Let me tell you, this is in absolutely no damn way a new thing. All this has been in 'western' culture before. And it all ended in 476AD. Because people are becoming weak pussies. Wait for islamic steamroll soon. Then I would sit in somewhere else laughing at you crying, and telling you that I told you so. No regrets.

tl;dr morals of the story: People stop being pussies who can't handle shit.

About restrooms: You got penis, go mens. You got vag, go women's. If you have problem, dealwithit.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 13:35 
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Calm your tits man! You're not gonna get yourself treated seriously if you act this aggressively. There was a lot of reason coming from the other "side" of the argument, so if you want your point to be understood and accepted, then you have to present some reason as well, instead of a bunch of insults.

Tigro wrote:
I hate topics where we 'discuss' opinions. Because 'discussing' opinions means there will be conflicting ones, and people are shit at acceptiong others' opinions. I think this all is bs. Go on and mock me. Because today's people are pussies and can't handle shit. Because they are selfish, and all they care about is their own well-being.
But this topic/subject is exactly the opposite! It's, at least in it's genuine non-hypocritical form, all about caring about the disadvantaged minorities and making life easier (less difficult) for them. And I don't mean trolls who want to be called Emperor or His Majesty, but those with genuine physiological/psychological disorders (maybe disorder is not the right word for some cases, but I hope it's clear that no insult is intended here).

You are entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to voice it; it's called freedom of speech. But, it is not acceptable any more if that opinion in some way insults or violates the freedoms of others. And yours does, unfortunately. Haruhi has been saying a lot of informative stuff, part of it based on his personal experience, so please, listen calmly and digest it, like I've been doing (I mentioned in the beginning that I also don't feel entirely comfortable about this issue). Don't reply impulsively.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 13:53 
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pawq wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to voice it; it's called freedom of speech. But, it is not acceptable any more if that opinion in some way insults or violates the freedoms of others.

can u glarify this, his onion is not acceptable if it insults anyone in any way? and how does a onion violate anyones freedom

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 15:01 
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pawq wrote:
But seriously, about the restrooms, what would the ideal solution be? Have a 3rd toilet for all those who don't clearly associate with male/female, or allow them to use whichever they want? Because the first doesn't seem too practical and in the latter I (or some perv) could then say "well I actually feel 3.8% woman so I feel entitled to use the female restroom".

What do you think will cause the most problems? this person walking into the men's bathroom or the women's bathroom? And what's a 'perv' going to do in the women's bathroom that would be so bad? Peep into the other stalls or sexually assault women?

I don't agree at all that freedom of speech is an issue here. No one is making any treats towards others, which is where I think freedom of speech ends.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 15:33 
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I know the meme may've distracted you from reading the last line of my post, but I concluded that it's a social issue. Say, there are a lot of women who will feel uncomfortable if they encounter someone who looks like a man in their restroom. Doesn't really matter if that person is a man, a cross-dressing woman, or something in between, because it'll make some of those women uncomfortable regardless. What I mean is that we have to bear in mind existing social norms. I think it would be unfair to just tell people "look from now on anyone can enter your restroom and if you've got a problem with that then dealwithit." I know those restrooms are no big deal, but as I explained before with my personal experience, for some people it is, and I think it has to be taken into consideration when deciding what would be most appropriate and inclusive.

"But seriously, about the restrooms, what would the ideal solution be?" was a genuine question, not mockery =)

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 15:57 
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pawq wrote:
But this topic/subject is exactly the opposite! It's, at least in it's genuine non-hypocritical form, all about caring about the disadvantaged minorities and making life easier (less difficult) for them. And I don't mean trolls who want to be called Emperor or His Majesty, but those with genuine physiological/psychological disorders (maybe disorder is not the right word for some cases, but I hope it's clear that no insult is intended here).

But I am genuine. I really feel uncomfortable when you don't call me Emperor. You just caused a great distress to me.
pawq wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion, and you're entitled to voice it; it's called freedom of speech. But, it is not acceptable any more if that opinion in some way insults or violates the freedoms of others. And yours does, unfortunately.

I am actually just defending my liberty against your attacks on it. And if was about to try and respect everyone's demand not to be offended, I couldn't say anything at all. If my opinion makes someone uncomfortable, why should it be my concern? And I am not talking about things like "holocaust didn't happen" because that is not an opinion. By opinion I mean "this thing is right, this thing is wrong". And if someone is really offended by me saying that, then I pity that dude. Or gal, or ze, or whatever his majesty wants to be called.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 17:01 
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kids were told their whole life how special they were
then they grow up and find out, that they are not as special as they thought, so they make shit up

there is a small minority, which suffer from gender dysphoria (classified as mental illness), but large majority just want to be trendy and ruin their life forever
expect large increase of suicide in the next years

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 17:25 
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Haruhi wrote:
Tigro wrote:
what makes a gender is penis or vagina between your legs. If you have this super mega uncommon hormonal disease, then ok, call yourself whatever the hell you want, but that's what, like 0.01% of population?

quit this bs.


Intersex is a fully recognised biological sex (and that is beyond argument), and makes up over 0.05% of the global population by itself. Add in any number of trans/hormonal things and it's much higher. Not sure how high so I won't mongo a fake number.

"What makes a gender is penis or vagina between your legs."

This is false. It is not false because of personal views or culture, it is entirely false because you do not have the correct definition of the word "Gender". You are referring to Biological Sex. Gender is actually a linguistic term used to describe classes of morphological constructs, which has been adapted to refer (in the English language) to the social, cultural and personal aspects inferred from having a specific sex.

Further, Biological Sex is NOT determined by a "penis or vagina between the legs", but is determined entirely by the chromosomal makeup of an individual, specifically chromosomal pair #23. As such, there are other confirmed biological sexes that exist beyond male and/or female, such as X (which expresses similar to the typical XX female, but with key differences. Referred to as Turner syndrome), XXY (which expresses somewhere between the typical XX female and XY male, referred to as Klinefelter syndrome). More exist beyond these, like Jacobs syndrome.

Might be good to learn some genetics Tigro because u mayb have a bonus chromosome 21 :lol:

I am afraid you are only wasting your time trying to explain anything to holy rollers like Tigro. He believes God created life in 7 days and that the Earth is flat, he won't understand any of this.

P.S. No offence/hate intended, Emperor Tigro.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 17:33 
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Tigro wrote:
Call me Emperor Tigro, because then I feel secure. If you don't call me Emperor, ...


You only started talking about this after this thread was started, you're clearly doing it to counteract other opinions, which means it's bullshit.

Generelly things like this, it takes little to nothing away from the "normals" and can mean so much to those actually affected, so just let them. Otherwise Haruhi has presented the facts very well, not much more to say there.

pawq wrote:
But seriously, about the restrooms, what would the ideal solution be?" was a genuine question, not mockery =)


Shopping center in my city recently implemented unisex restroom. Everyone goes to the same room and stalls are closed off so you can't "peek". Seems to work fine, haven't heard of any complains. Also makes more sense in terms of capacity.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 18:19 
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I dont get the toilet issue. Stalls are already closed almost everywhere so the "issue" is about the room with sinks where nobody goes naked anyway (apart from pissing in a urinal but somehow feels liek people are not worried about vaginas in male toilets). So how is it different to having mixed sexes in any other public space?

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 18:50 
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Okay so in terms of how this might affect others I have seen some good arguments, and also some good counterarguments.

I agree with pawq that the bathroom topic is a social issue and you can't deny it may not affect you but it will affect some (and I have no idea how many), but mainly it will affect women and their sense of security in the bathroom. It begs the question though, does identifying as non binary mean you get to use a bathroom different than your sexual organs? If the answer is no, the whole argument about bathrooms doesn't matter because it won't affect me or others anyway.

The other argument I have seen from emperor Tigro is that he doesn't want to be required to call somebody something he feels they are not. This begs the question, will I be required to call somebody something (he/she/they), and what will happen to me if I am wrong? If there are no legal consequences to calling somebody something they don't identify as, then I do not see a problem because this doesn't really affect me or others.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 19:41 
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imo it all went too far.

if problem is only toilet, need make all toilet usual (not m/w). nothing very hard

don't like that these things as guys, changing of sex and ... are supported and bringed to the fore (gay parades, bonuses if you are abnormal) for some reasons, although it is only deviations. So we get more (in %) unnormal people, and it is bad, at least for birthrate.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 19:54 
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I agree with AndrY. Five years ago I had a girlfriend. Then I saw a gay parade and thought, "hm, this looks fun". Now I am 100% homo and can't reproduce. Damn those gay parades!

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 20:32 
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I agree with AndrY. Five years ago I had a girlfriend. Then I saw a gay parade and thought, "hm, this looks fun". Now I am 100% homo and can't reproduce. Damn those gay parades!


gayparade is one of way to show that gays are exist and they are a lot, so a doubting person will not be along after change sex. good argument for it

it is advertising imo, and "hm this look fun" can formed after some views of it

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 20:44 
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Well it does look fun, but just because it looks fun it doesn't make me want to suck dicks.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 21:51 
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The whole bathroom thing already doesn't work since not everyone is heterosexual. The idea behind gender separation was to avoid sexual tension in the bathroom, but what if I'm attracted to my own gender? Maybe I get excited and feel uncomfortable when I see these dicks in the shower. Should I get a separate space then?


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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 22:15 
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I'm just saying I know many women aren't cool with men in their bathroom, I'm trying to think of them you know what I mean? Its definitely something to consider for them more so than from a man's point of view imo <3
I think the stalls that basically make it your own room are good, but maybe hard to implement for all business owners

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 22:40 
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It kind of reminds me how some muslims defend headscarves by saying that otherwise men can't control themselves. There's an assumption that men are bad and dangerous. Sure, it's understandable that for some women (and men) it might be a bit uncomfortable at first, but they'll get used to it quickly imo.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 22:50 
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Yeah, headscarves just make them fetishize other stuff. Now they get excited by fingers or whatever else they can see.


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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 20 Oct 2017, 23:54 
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Kopaka wrote:
Shopping center in my city recently implemented unisex restroom. Everyone goes to the same room and stalls are closed off so you can't "peek". Seems to work fine, haven't heard of any complains. Also makes more sense in terms of capacity.
Nice! I'm kinda interested the scale on which that's carried out, and also what the response is in different countries. Honestly, for me personally, I would have absolutely no problem with that (not sure about teh urinals tho...), but yea as gimp said, can imagine women being bothered by that. Sex-separated toilets are sort of very deeply embedded in our societies, and I'm not sure how ez it would be to go away with that. But yeah, seems like not such a bad idea.

Does that shopping centre toilet have urinals Kopa?

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 00:16 
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jblaze wrote:
you say 0,01% population feels nonbinary. so what? you'd like to "punish" such a person from mankind just because its in minority?

I couldn't care less how people identify. But I find fucking retarded, that in some states (it might be only California), you can get prosecuted for "misgendering" people, for example if you don't call them zie, xie or whatever shit they made up.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 00:26 
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milagros wrote:
in some states (it might be only California), you can get prosecuted for "misgendering" people

Really? Source?

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 00:59 
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does haruhi or someone have statistic how many transgender people have those syndromes (xxy etc)? mila mentioned gender dysphoria and it was my understanding that this is what most transpeople have instead of some chromosomal disorder. it is classified as a mental illness but at the moment i think that best prognosis for these people is change of gender according to statistics. still it feels weird that we go with their "delusion" and if we even can come up with a better treatment because the issue has been highly politicized so telling these people to be ok with their gender is to some people like telling gays to convert to straight

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 03:15 
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danielj wrote:
milagros wrote:
in some states (it might be only California), you can get prosecuted for "misgendering" people

Really? Source?

http://www.dailywire.com/news/20299/cal ... ly-zanotti
http://nypost.com/2016/05/19/city-issue ... -pronouns/
random google search

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 08:56 
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Ok, so it's not like you can get punished just for accidentally not using someone's preferred pronoun. I mean if my employer constantly used female pronouns for me I would see it as harassment, so it should be the same if we are to introduce new pronouns. The issue imo is whether to officially recognize those alternative pronouns, which I'm not really sure where I stand on.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 09:05 
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I think invented words almost never stick. Has anyone here ever heard those invented pronouns being used unironically? It's a pity that English has no good neutral pronoun but forcing it will never work.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 09:09 
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Kopaka, I felt insecure to come out and tell you what I really needed, because I feared that you would inflict psychological trauma to my fragile personality. But after gimp started this topic, I thought maybe it's time to give it a try and tell you how I felt for a very long time and that I really need to be called Emperor. I actually (naively) expected your pats on the back, for being brave for sharing you this very personal need. Instead what I got was another mockery. Do you all even realize how hard this is for me?

If society keeps conforming to abnormal and deviant individuals or (marginal) groups, society itself will become deviant. Starting by not calling them deviant anymore. Proceeding with toilets.

I already made you call me Emperor. One individual made a group do what the Emperor wants. The group already is manipulated by some stupid prick. Gratz.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 11:16 
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Sorry long post...

Vermin Supreme wrote:
does haruhi or someone have statistic how many transgender people have those syndromes (xxy etc)? mila mentioned gender dysphoria and it was my understanding that this is what most transpeople have instead of some chromosomal disorder. it is classified as a mental illness but at the moment i think that best prognosis for these people is change of gender according to statistics. still it feels weird that we go with their "delusion" and if we even can come up with a better treatment because the issue has been highly politicized so telling these people to be ok with their gender is to some people like telling gays to convert to straight

Turner syndrome (X) affects approximately 0.0002% of live births worldwide, however incidence rate in stillbirth and miscarriage is significantly higher than that. (Not sure on numbers). Klinefelter syndrome (XXY) is about 0.001% of live births worldwide.

Overall, sex chromosome disorders make up about 1/400 - 1/500 births worldwide. Here is a public WikiLecture on Sex Chromosome disorders, if you're interested in reading a little further. I am not trying to falsely suggest that these situations are extremely common, but rather displaying that neither biological sex nor gender are binary, even disallowing for gender dysphoria.

migarlos wrote:
there is a small minority, which suffer from gender dysphoria (classified as mental illness), but large majority just want to be trendy and ruin their life forever
expect large increase of suicide in the next years

I think we should move away from classifying gender dysphoria in this thread as "mental illness", as the semantic value of "illness" suggests a different connotation of gender dysphoria compared to the actual classification, which is as a disorder.

Otherwise, you are exactly right most the way through this thread, mila. Especially "large majority just want to be trendy".

This study estimates the transgender population of the U.S.A. in 2016 at 1.4 million adults. (OR 0.6% of the overall population). So it totals up to less than 1% of the population. Not sure if this is useful fact, but there you have it. The study reporting the absolute highest incidence of transgender individuals was performed on high school students in New Zealand (a subset of the population in their most impressionable period, in an area of the world that is fairly progressive). There's only 3 realistic explanations for this - either it's coincidence, people are going with a "trend" (which I agree is exceptionally dangerous on such a core personal concept as gender/sexuality), or acceptance of transexualism is perceived as decreasingly worth hiding by this group of people. If the final option is the case, then it suggests that Non-Binary Gender is a more important discussion than the 1% of the U.S.A. would suggest. Who knows how high the real figure is, if it's obscured by transgendered people not feeling safe to present themselves accurately in research.

This is just a shitty article that's un-cited, so don't take this as fact, but it appears that transgendered suicide rates are astronomically higher in commonality than traditionally gendered people (40% or higher, compared to less than 1%). That in itself is sufficiently concerning that it must be discussed and support systems made available.

Emperor wrote:
Starting by not calling them deviant anymore

Is this a bad thing?

Lousq wrote:
I dont get the toilet issue. Stalls are already closed almost everywhere so the "issue" is about the room with sinks where nobody goes naked anyway (apart from pissing in a urinal but somehow feels liek people are not worried about vaginas in male toilets). So how is it different to having mixed sexes in any other public space?

It's fundamentally rooted in gender roles, real world risk and societal views on gender. I say this from the perspective of someone who is absolutely a supporter of Men's Rights against harassment and inequality, as well as women's rights for the same reasons, but the real world scenario is that society perceives women as being at higher risk of sexual harassment, violent assault and the like. This isn't necessarily true, and the lack of recognition of the equivalent problems in harassment for men is of significant concern, it's just part of why toilets are such a huge part of the discussion.

Realistically there is no reason why enclosed toilet stalls can't be commonplace and unisex. Any point I've ever seen trying to justify bathroom segregation is either easily dismissed by adjusting the design of them bathroom, or rooted in culture/societal view. For instance, Lousku says this:

Quote:
Stalls are already closed almost everywhere so the "issue" is about the room with sinks where nobody goes naked anyway (apart from pissing in a urinal

But there's no reason the urinal can't be in a stall too. It's just the way things are done now, it's not necessarily the way things MUST be done.

kuchitsu wrote:
The whole bathroom thing already doesn't work since not everyone is heterosexual. The idea behind gender separation was to avoid sexual tension in the bathroom, but what if I'm attracted to my own gender? Maybe I get excited and feel uncomfortable when I see these dicks in the shower. Should I get a separate space then?

This is a good point, and nothing I've ever seen discussed. It should even potentially be of more concern than Transexual individuals in bathrooms. I'm sure if you ask any macho man if he is concerned about T man looking at his penis, or gay man looking at his penis, or straight man looking at penis, he is probably upset about all 3 scenarios.

gimp wrote:
does identifying as non binary mean you get to use a bathroom different than your sexual organs?

This is where the global debate inevitably ends up, and it's where we have inevitably never progressed beyond.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 14:11 
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danielj wrote:
Ok, so it's not like you can get punished just for accidentally not using someone's preferred pronoun.

yeah, but if someone told me she/he wants me to use they, zie, zerself , xie or xerself, i would call it bullshit

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 14:27 
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Haruhi wrote:
Emperor wrote:
Starting by not calling them deviant anymore

Is this a bad thing?

Yes. Because then you ignore reality. And if you claim that white is black, you can claim anything you want. Postmodernism in a nutshell.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 14:49 
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Tigro wrote:
If society keeps conforming to abnormal and deviant individuals or (marginal) groups, society itself will become deviant. Starting by not calling them deviant anymore. Proceeding with toilets.

We are all different in some ways (or abnormal, deviant, whatever you want to call it). Why would you need to call anyone deviant?

jblaze wrote:
this way we could eliminate whole society. 0,01% is bald, 0,01% has heterochromia, 0,01% is homo, 0,01% has 30cm dick, 0,01% has tastier ass than feet, 0,01% likes vegetables over spaghetti. youre left with 0% ppl that dont belong to any minority.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 20:56 
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Tigro wrote:
Haruhi wrote:
Emperor wrote:
Starting by not calling them deviant anymore

Is this a bad thing?

Yes. Because then you ignore reality. And if you claim that white is black, you can claim anything you want. Postmodernism in a nutshell.

That is essentially true and a major concern for current scholars that worry about recent phenomena such as the prevalence of university professors openly identifying as Marxists and the institutions of humanities education turning into postmodernism indoctrination factories. It's not a great thing to witness for anyone who has studied history of the past century and therefore can see where this road may lead.

Where I stand on the whole pronouns thing is I don't want it to get to a point where every interaction with a new person should start with a "what's your pronoun?" in fear of accidentally offending them within seconds and possibly getting prosecuted if legislation progresses the way it's been going in a few places (which is also creating precedent for plenty of other possible cases of compelled speech policing which I consider very dangerous and possibly pretty Orweillian).

I want to be clear I would have no problem to refer to a friend (or anyone that I respect really) by their preferred pronoun as a sign of respect because I care about them. I don't care that deeply about the feelings of every stranger and neither does anyone as far as I see it so I will use he/she as a matter of convenience and that will cause no issue 99.9% of the time and that should really be 100% in an ideal world. You're not that special and I really don't give a shit about which gender you feel like today and neither does anyone else who just wants to engage in efficient communication and to get on with their day.

They say these people just want your respect but I don't think the act of identifying as something other than what you clearly appear to be is in and of itself deserving respect. To paraphrase Jordan B. Peterson, respect should be reserved to those in the category of people who have earned respect one way or another. What's the use of respect if you just give it out randomly? It's like inflating the currency. That respect is earned and not given out like candy to any snowflake who gets offended whenever they're addressed as something other than "Your Grace" or whatever because they've chosen gender studies in university or something equally unemployable and now find themselves surrounded by delusion enablers and well meaning but ultimately clueless virtue signaling liberals who have now decided that even people whose only notable achievement in life has been coming up with the 78th new pronoun, taking unprescribed hormones they got off the darknet and going down a road to statistically 40% odds of suicide are basically heroes. Just assume I wrote the last sentence in one breath.

Everyone trying to make sense of what's going on here and what really caused it to start should listen to this discussion between Jordan and a brilliant trans, gay woman who's equally repulsed by the recent nonsense. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-hIVnmUdXM

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 21 Oct 2017, 21:36 
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pawq wrote:
Does that shopping centre toilet have urinals Kopa?


There's no urinals.

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 Post subject: Re: Non binary gender
PostPosted: 22 Oct 2017, 02:43 
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btw in south park there was one episode some years ago where kyle's dad wanted to become a dolphin and then he was upset there were no public toilets for dolphins at a stadium (or where was it)

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