Killing animals

Discuss, argue, whine, talk but not about Elma.

Moderator: Moporators

Post Reply
User avatar
kuchitsu
Kuski
Posts: 1423
Joined: 13 Aug 2010, 20:31

Killing animals

Post by kuchitsu »

One topic I find extremely difficult to discuss is animal killing. Specifically, the whole problem of which ones can be killed and which ones should be spared. It seems so tricky to figure out a good criteria. The intelligence criteria doesn't quite work so far since pigs are a lot smarter than some species we are trying to preserve. Killing only when it's necessary for survival and health seems like a decent idea, but it's not easy to decide which things we absolutely need and which can be replaced with human-made stuff (hello vegans). It's so strange how the values depend a lot on the culture and its history. Also for some reason pity for fluffy animals is a lot stronger than pity for insects or small things in the sea. And apparently species become more valuable when they are endangered, which is kind of anthropocentric I think. It's like we want to keep them so that they can continue entertaining us at the zoo and we're interested in saving them so that we can feel good about ourselves or something. It's weird. Pretty much the only thing I can agree on with most people is that we should be trying to kill less and less. It's hard for me to make a more definite statement without introducing a crapload of contradictions ("if that isn't okay, why is this okay?" and so on). The whole problem is very cynical and reminds me of questions like "the lifeboat can only take 5 passengers but you have 6, who do you throw in the sea?". It's like there are no good answers.

So, uh, any thoughts on the matter?
User avatar
milagros
Cheatless
Posts: 4560
Joined: 19 May 2002, 17:05

Re: Killing animals

Post by milagros »

animals with good meat can be killed
[carebox]
User avatar
Sunshine
Kuski
Posts: 413
Joined: 21 Feb 2016, 17:59

Re: Killing animals

Post by Sunshine »

so if human meat was good you would permit the killing of humans? soon we will have lab grown meat that is more economical and ecological so killing animals for meat will be thing of the past, thats what im hoping for at least. i eat meat but i will be first to admit it is unethical
User avatar
Kopaka
39mins club
Posts: 6610
Joined: 23 May 2002, 13:59
Team: LAME
Location: In a northern danish city beating YOUR record.
Contact:

Re: Killing animals

Post by Kopaka »

Yeah I've thought about that as well, if a fly bothers you and you kill it no one will think of it, if the same happens with a kitten people will look very strange at you, if not call the authorities. I don't know what my point is, but it's weird to think of where the limit is.
User avatar
Zweq
34mins club
Posts: 4055
Joined: 28 Nov 2002, 15:54
Location: suo mesta

Re: Killing animals

Post by Zweq »

vegan is ok because gofe is a plant
Image
User avatar
abruzzi
Kuski
Posts: 1425
Joined: 17 Sep 2007, 21:07

Re: Killing animals

Post by abruzzi »

in world we have liek 98% hypocrisy 2% logic. get over it already and laugh at it on a daily basis. i cannot be fucking serious anymore
<Pawq> at a gym you have only 3 options: 1. have your eyes closed, 2. stare at yourself, 3. stare at others, all of which are either super boring or disgusting
User avatar
milagros
Cheatless
Posts: 4560
Joined: 19 May 2002, 17:05

Re: Killing animals

Post by milagros »

Vermin Supreme wrote:so if human meat was good you would permit the killing of humans?
unfortunately, human meat tastes a beat sweet
[carebox]
User avatar
Madness
35mins club
Posts: 2168
Joined: 1 Jan 2009, 10:51
Location: UK

Re: Killing animals

Post by Madness »

Animals kill and eat other animals too, it's nature.
Image
User avatar
Sunshine
Kuski
Posts: 413
Joined: 21 Feb 2016, 17:59

Re: Killing animals

Post by Sunshine »

they also rape and cannibalize each other, i dont think that is very good argument...
User avatar
Madness
35mins club
Posts: 2168
Joined: 1 Jan 2009, 10:51
Location: UK

Re: Killing animals

Post by Madness »

Vermin Supreme wrote:they also rape and cannibalize each other, i dont think that is very good argument...
Most of them don't, but yeah, there are some thugs everywhere. Even among animals!
Image
iltsu
37mins club
Posts: 248
Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 19:15
Team: EF

Re: Killing animals

Post by iltsu »

I like meat. I wont stop eating meat. I can kill animal to get meat.
iltsu
37mins club
Posts: 248
Joined: 25 Aug 2011, 19:15
Team: EF

Re: Killing animals

Post by iltsu »

Vermin Supreme wrote:so if human meat was good you would permit the killing of humans? they also rape and cannibalize each other, i dont think that is very good argument...
Talking about very good arguments, those two that jappe wrote were worst that ive seen in while.
User avatar
Sunshine
Kuski
Posts: 413
Joined: 21 Feb 2016, 17:59

Re: Killing animals

Post by Sunshine »

nice to hear since none of them were my arguments and were examples of the logic presented by "pro-meat" mans of this thread
User avatar
Tigro
Kuski
Posts: 2198
Joined: 6 Jan 2009, 13:08
Location: Srdcom vychodniar
Contact:

Re: Killing animals

Post by Tigro »

Imo it's very culturally-bound thing.
If somewhere it's normal to kill and eat dogs, ok, no problem. Same with horses, cats, or any other animal basically, up to spiders and similar.
Question is what about endangered species.
Image
User avatar
ribot
Not banned
Posts: 2416
Joined: 19 May 2002, 16:20
Location: Miranda: the true state
Contact:

Re: Killing animals

Post by ribot »

The easy answer to this question is: go vegan.
-
"leader status in the Elma against-the-system underground" - Abula
-
IncrElastoMania - Elma Simulation - Browser Game 2020
Elma Imager - Command Line Tool 2020
User avatar
8-ball
39mins club
Posts: 4496
Joined: 9 May 2003, 13:30
Team: MiE
Location: Riga, Latvia

Re: Killing animals

Post by 8-ball »

Factory farming conditions for meat production are indefensible. It has to go, at least gradually as other options become more viable for masses.
Hunting for your meat is much, much, much more humane as you kill a mature animal that's lived a full life and needs to be done anyway in many cases to control wild populations and in the case of US hunter permits actually raise billions for wildlife preservation and such, having possibly a larger positive impact than all the vegans. At some point I want to also get into hunting and to possibly raise my own chickens.
Homie Joe has good points as well:

Image
39:37,91
User avatar
ribot
Not banned
Posts: 2416
Joined: 19 May 2002, 16:20
Location: Miranda: the true state
Contact:

Re: Killing animals

Post by ribot »

tl;dr
In today's society even fucking retards have the same humans rights as you, so why shouldn't animals? Because animals serve the purpose to the pleasure of your daily life, and therefore it's okay to treat them as objectified factories.

-

I'd say the question boils down to two points:
  1. to what extent is it justifiable to harm animals
  2. how much are you ready to change your lifestyle to cause less harm
In medicine for example, torturing animals might save many human lives. Still, if that testing is done on lifestyle diseases, such as smoking and eating many animal products, then a healthier lifestyle would not only spare human lives but also those animals'.

When it comes to health, there is no need to consume any animal products for most people. Then there is the environment issue too, where factory farming has a very heavy impact.

The "humane killing" argument doesn't really hold though. How many human lives would you have to save in order to be morally okay with then hunting a few of them down? And to Joe Rogan, is it okay to kill people just because they had rough lives? And since animals kill other animals, it's okay to kill them? Humans do kill other humans, so then is it okay to kill them? Or, if humans have good meat it's okay to kill them?

None of these reasons make sense. The real reason is that ppl think it's okay to kill and torture animals, even for mundane things like personal style or gastronomic taste. (Even if there will be new, healthier, vegan options, most people would prefer to go on with this harm.)

There is another case too, where animals bother you, such as flies or ants moving into your home, or mosquitos bothering the fuck out of you or killing you with disease. In this case if they bother you you have the right to defend yourself. Just like you have the right to defend yourself if a human breaks into your home or attacks you.
-
"leader status in the Elma against-the-system underground" - Abula
-
IncrElastoMania - Elma Simulation - Browser Game 2020
Elma Imager - Command Line Tool 2020
User avatar
analcactus
Kuski
Posts: 421
Joined: 7 Dec 2010, 12:54
Location: St. Petersburg, Russia
Contact:

Re: Killing animals

Post by analcactus »

The easy answer to this question is: go vegan.
The easy answer of mine is that i don't fucking care where my meal came from.
I like dogs and would not eat dog meat imo, wouldn't neither eat coala and cat meats, also human cuz illegal imo. Pretty sure that's all. Any other meat, eggs, milks and surstromming is very good, you can send me if have, especially i want to try out surstromming ty

EDIT: I meant pandas, not coalas - sorry australian bros haru and akb!!
Image Image
Image
User avatar
Ruben
Kuski
Posts: 836
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 18:07
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Killing animals

Post by Ruben »

Current mass-produced meat industry is bad for several reasons. Here are a few:

1. It's fucking cruel to subject these animals to such horrendous conditions, regardless of intelligence. Just because something is less intelligent than you doesn't mean you have the right to torture it.

2. The combination of little to no movement, unsanitary surroundings, crap feed and a life composed entrely of stress leads to poor meat quality. It gets dry, watery (yes both dry and watery), bland and chewy. Compare the cheapest cut of chicken you can to the most expensive cut, it doesn't even taste like the same animal.

3. The meat industry goes through so much antibiotics trying to keep the animals alive in unlivable conditions, and because of this the antibiotics seep into all our food, making bacteria immune to it and rendering it useless. All the time thousands of scientists are researching new types of antibiotics to keep up, but soon we will reach a point where all bacteria is immune to all antibiotics, and then we shall welcome back all the old classic plagues and diseases we are too young to remember.

I like meat, but like J2 said I'm looking forward to a time when it can be grown directly. Until that time we have to work towards sustainable and responsible farming. If not for the sake of the animals, but just for the sake of us.
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec

My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
User avatar
Tigro
Kuski
Posts: 2198
Joined: 6 Jan 2009, 13:08
Location: Srdcom vychodniar
Contact:

Re: Killing animals

Post by Tigro »

I completely agree with you Ruben, just have one question regarding this:
Ruben wrote:1. It's fucking cruel to subject these animals to such horrendous conditions, regardless of intelligence. Just because something is less intelligent than you doesn't mean you have the right to torture it.
What are your foundations for such claim?
Image
User avatar
Ruben
Kuski
Posts: 836
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 18:07
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Killing animals

Post by Ruben »

Tigro wrote:I completely agree with you Ruben, just have one question regarding this:
Ruben wrote:1. It's fucking cruel to subject these animals to such horrendous conditions, regardless of intelligence. Just because something is less intelligent than you doesn't mean you have the right to torture it.
What are your foundations for such claim?
Why don't you go ask your local priest if you should torture animals, seeing as they're lesser beings and all.
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec

My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
User avatar
Tigro
Kuski
Posts: 2198
Joined: 6 Jan 2009, 13:08
Location: Srdcom vychodniar
Contact:

Re: Killing animals

Post by Tigro »

Ruben wrote:Why don't you go ask your local priest if you should torture animals, seeing as they're lesser beings and all.
Tigro wrote:I completely agree with you Ruben, just have one question regarding this
pls shove that attitude up your ass. I kindly asked you a question.
Image
User avatar
Madness
35mins club
Posts: 2168
Joined: 1 Jan 2009, 10:51
Location: UK

Re: Killing animals

Post by Madness »

He kindly asked you a question too. No need to be offended.
Image
User avatar
Ruben
Kuski
Posts: 836
Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 18:07
Location: Oslo, Norway

Re: Killing animals

Post by Ruben »

Tigro wrote:
Ruben wrote:Why don't you go ask your local priest if you should torture animals, seeing as they're lesser beings and all.
Tigro wrote:I completely agree with you Ruben, just have one question regarding this
pls shove that attitude up your ass. I kindly asked you a question.
And by kindly asking me that question you also implied that you don't understand why torturing animals is bad. Do you also kindly torture animals?
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec

My fake plants died because I did not pretend to water them.
User avatar
kuchitsu
Kuski
Posts: 1423
Joined: 13 Aug 2010, 20:31

Re: Killing animals

Post by kuchitsu »

He didn't imply that. He was just wondering what are your reasons. Maybe he has his reasons as well and wants to compare them.
User avatar
pawq
38mins club
Posts: 6547
Joined: 24 Aug 2008, 19:56
Team: TR
Location: Southampton, UK

Re: Killing animals

Post by pawq »

I'm sorry kuchi, but "What are your foundations for such claim?" very strongly implies disagreement with said claim.
User avatar
ribot
Not banned
Posts: 2416
Joined: 19 May 2002, 16:20
Location: Miranda: the true state
Contact:

Re: Killing animals

Post by ribot »

Should you torture animals because they are less intelligent?

If so, then more intelligent humans should torture less intelligent ones? In other words you should torture your own children and your own pets?

Maybe for a child it's hard to understand why you shouldn't torture. But if you care about your younger ones or your pets, it shouldn't be that hard. Just think how you would like it if they were tortured by someone.
-
"leader status in the Elma against-the-system underground" - Abula
-
IncrElastoMania - Elma Simulation - Browser Game 2020
Elma Imager - Command Line Tool 2020
User avatar
Tigro
Kuski
Posts: 2198
Joined: 6 Jan 2009, 13:08
Location: Srdcom vychodniar
Contact:

Re: Killing animals

Post by Tigro »

I didn't imply anything. And just exactly for the possibility that some people might find it *implying*, I explicitly said I agree with you. So quit your bullshit.
Kuchi is obviously the only one to get that.

People don't even have reading comprehension these days.

With this implying approach you can twist anything anyone says.
Image
User avatar
Madness
35mins club
Posts: 2168
Joined: 1 Jan 2009, 10:51
Location: UK

Re: Killing animals

Post by Madness »

If your question didn't imply anything, then why do you suggest Ruben's question implied anything about his attitude?

Oh I get it. You wrote "People don't even have reading comprehension these days." and that includes you as well. If it didn't, you would be implying that you are not a human.
Image
User avatar
Kopaka
39mins club
Posts: 6610
Joined: 23 May 2002, 13:59
Team: LAME
Location: In a northern danish city beating YOUR record.
Contact:

Re: Killing animals

Post by Kopaka »

When the last ten posts is about what people mean or didn't mean, you know they're out of arguments and should maybe just let it go.
Post Reply