We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

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We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 14 Mar 2018, 02:44

I believe in only one thing. And that is that nobody on Earth knows the truth about the origins of our universe. I believe many people think they know the truth 99 percent, these are usually religious types or the random crazies who did too much acid. I still believe that somewhere deep in their minds that even they know they don't know for certain.

I like people who label their ideas of the origins of the universe as theories, like "the big bang theory" for example. I would appreciate it too if religious types labeled their religion as a theory. In my mind, I give all origins of the universe theories a probability. Judaism, Christianity, Islamic dogma, and the like are given like a .1 percent chance of being correct.

The big bang theory i give like a 25 percent chance, its the best i have heard so far, but still seems so hard to believe. A Truman show theory is possible too, that you are all figments of my imagination and not real, i give that like a 1 percent chance.

The theory that we live in a matrix is my favorite theory, and i give it like a 1 percent chance also. Its different from the Truman show cause in this theory i think we are all sharing the same delusion together. I think when we die we might just wake up in a different existence where earth was just some kind of simulation or something. It wouldn't explain the origin of the new universe we would find ourselves in, but it would explain the origin of the one we are experiencing right now.

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Now Ill write about the part where you help me.

Premise: Your perceptions are all a simulation that we are sharing together.

Question: What evidence, if any, can be found here to prove that our perceptions are a simulation?

No answer is too dumb or crazy! Think of it as a fun mental exercise.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Chris » 14 Mar 2018, 07:51

If we live in simulation than god would be kid who runs it?

btw rip hawking :<
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by 8-ball » 15 Mar 2018, 02:07

Why do you choose a theory you like and THEN look for evidence supporting it? That seems to be a pretty backwards approach and not unlike that of the religious dogmatists. Also you seem misguided about the meaning of the word "theory" - when the general population hears "theory" they usually think of something along the lines of "idea" or "hypothesis". In science you actually need substantial evidence before something becomes a theory and even when evidence becomes overwhelming it's still called a theory.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 15 Mar 2018, 18:44

8-ball - I think youre right, theory is not the correct word, I guess possibilities is a better word, or maybe i just dont know the right word for it. Also, it is just a fun mental exercise, you do not have to participate if it bothers you.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Tigro » 15 Mar 2018, 23:00

here we go again.

and answer to your qusestion: none.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 16 Mar 2018, 00:01

Tigro - thank you for answering the question, I like your answer.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 16 Mar 2018, 00:20

8-ball is making me feel like i needed to do this more like the scientific method. I think i already am, but that we just had a misunderstanding because i used bad wordage, i will restate it like the scientific method.

Ask a question: what is the origin of the universe we are perceiving right now?

Hypothesis: We are living in a simulated universe like the matrix movie, created by somebody or something, and our real life forms are in a different universe.

Background Research/evidence of hypothesis: okay this is where i need your help, so far only Tigro has answered :)

Tigro- "none"
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Grace » 16 Mar 2018, 05:25

I believe in only one thing. And that is that nobody on Earth knows the truth about the origins of our universe.
Yep
Premise: Your perceptions are all a simulation that we are sharing together.

Question: What evidence, if any, can be found here to prove that our perceptions are a simulation?
None.

You're right that it's a difficult mental exercise, but it's not so much difficult in the way of having a complex answer to unpack. Hundreds of generations including many billions of humans have been able to get only so far as having a "best guess" of the big bang theory, and even then there are plausible and legitimate questions to be made about that theory.

I think one of the most interesting parts about humanity is that nobody can know enough to answer a question like this properly. The variety and depth of knowledge necessary to be informed and informative in answering this question is beyond what any human has ever achieved. Our best science over the millenia on this sort of topic has involved minds from many disciplines working in tandem, rather than any one or two individuals discovering the secrets.

Further, when you restate your question, it comes across more as "we are living in a simulated reality. How can we prove this?" and my answer is that we can't. Even if it were true, this is our reality, and everything that has occured throughout history has been perfectly within our understood laws of physics (other than the origin of our reality that you're questioning). The reason you struggle to find evidence to support this hypothesis is that it's fairly likely no evidence has ever or will ever exist to support it, whether or not it's true.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by kuchitsu » 16 Mar 2018, 12:22

I think a very important part of life is learning to ask the right questions. Some questions don't have answers, or only have answers which are impossible to understand or are useless. Buddha would ignore your question since it's irrelevant. Sorry for not answering your question.

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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by pawq » 16 Mar 2018, 12:54

gimp wrote:
14 Mar 2018, 02:44
Question: What evidence, if any, can be found here to prove that our perceptions are a simulation?
Tigro wrote:
15 Mar 2018, 23:00
and answer to your qusestion: none.
Funny you should say that as a religious person :wink:

(not trying to be mean, just an observation)

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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Tigro » 16 Mar 2018, 14:43

pawq wrote:
16 Mar 2018, 12:54
gimp wrote:
14 Mar 2018, 02:44
Question: What evidence, if any, can be found here to prove that our perceptions are a simulation?
Tigro wrote:
15 Mar 2018, 23:00
and answer to your qusestion: none.
Funny you should say that as a religious person :wink:

(not trying to be mean, just an observation)
Not even virtual machines can't propagate to their super OS (disregard some exceptions), as long as the super OS doesn't allow it.
I find it the same. The upper level (above us) needs to allow us to see (something from) the upper level. If it doesn't we have no chance of knowing that this is happening, however hard you try.

So basically I edit my answer to: None, as far as the transcendent authority doesn't allow us to.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Sunshine » 16 Mar 2018, 17:21

gimp wrote:
16 Mar 2018, 00:20
Background Research/evidence of hypothesis: okay this is where i need your help, so far only Tigro has answered :)
https://www.simulation-argument.com/simulation.html
nick bostrom argues that if it possible to run simulations then we almost certainly are in one
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 16 Mar 2018, 18:24

Very good read Jappe.

This article is basically saying something that I have thought about myself. If in the future we will be capable of making simulations of human lives, then who is to say we are not in one right now? He also states that if you believe these simulations will one day be possible to create, then you have no right to dismiss the idea that you might be living in one right now. Of course this also heavily relies on what your ideas of consciousness are, are machines conscious on some level? We have to assume these simulations are creating conscious beings, "I think, therefore I am", if I am in a simulation right now, I am in one where I am conscious.

I do not call the matrix possibility my favorite possibility because I think it is the most likely to be true, I call it my favorite because I hope it is true. It would be pretty fucking cool.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Sunshine » 18 Mar 2018, 00:11

there is also the concept of "quantum archaeology" which falls a little bit to the fringe science side but resurrecting the dead could be one of the reasons why posthuman civilization is running simulations. so in a sense being in a simulation would be your second time "living" as maybe you once existed but died before technological breakthroughs that allow indefinite lifespans and now those that did are trying to bring us back. more about it here: http://transhumanity.net/can-science-re ... -the-dead/.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by milagros » 18 Mar 2018, 02:41

i think there is one flaw in the simulation argument:
the biggest computer we can theoretically build has a smaller state-space than the state-space of our universe
that's why simulation is a given universe is always smaller than the universe itself, most likely orders of magnitude smaller
so you quickly end up in too smaller universes not capable of containing life
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by 8-ball » 18 Mar 2018, 04:36

People interested in this topic will probably enjoy this short story: http://qntm.org/responsibility
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 19 Mar 2018, 06:29

8-ball - great read, what a mind fuck! If infinite computing power was possible in the future, i am not sure milagros' smaller universes problem would matter.

Milagros - okay so lets say each universe simulation had to be made smaller than its creator. Couldn't the cells, trees, stars, computers, and atoms be made smaller as well by the same percentage decrease? If the universes kept getting infinitely smaller, but so were the contents inside them then the universes would appear the same to me as it does to the first people who are in the original.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Tigro » 19 Mar 2018, 07:30

It's not about distances between atoms. It's about the number of atoms in the universe.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 19 Mar 2018, 17:52

Correct me if I am wrong, but in Nick Bostrom's argument he does not care about all the atoms in the universe. The math he computes is only concerned about the human mind and the synapses in it that allow it to have thought, sense, and observe. So only the atoms that we look at in a microscope need to be simulated, the simulation is not recreating the actual universe, just a devious simulation that is unsuspicious to us. His abstract shows all the math. And it makes sense, its a simulation mainly of just our minds, I don't think all the atoms in the universe need to be simulated, just our perceptions of them. He actually talks about how it would be impossible to simulate everything at the quantum level. Whatever argument you have, I would encourage you to look through his paper first and address it from there, he is very thorough.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Chris » 20 Mar 2018, 11:00

8-ball wrote:
15 Mar 2018, 02:07
Why do you choose a theory you like and THEN look for evidence supporting it? That seems to be a pretty backwards approach and not unlike that of the religious dogmatists
Uhhh this is how science works. You think of something then you try to find evidence supporting it. Look at gravity waves discovery for example or quantum entanglement and so on. I agree with misuse of word theory, but this is how science works. You have some idea, then you to find ways to prove it. At the end of day nature is what it is, we just use models to describe it and all we can do is to validate some model.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by iCS » 20 Mar 2018, 13:27

Hard to prove anything in a world where you can't talk about anything which is different from the "official" opinion. Well, you are allowed to talk, but there is a very high chance that you'll find yourself stigmatized very quickly.
Science has its own dogmas just like those religions.
Scientists don't like to admit if they are wrong in certain questions. They will insist on old, obsolete theories, even if there's a better theory, but that new theory would prove that they were wrong for decades. This makes real progress very hard.

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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by milagros » 20 Mar 2018, 14:15

gimp wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but in Nick Bostrom's argument he does not care about all the atoms in the universe. The math he computes is only concerned about the human mind and the synapses in it that allow it to have thought, sense, and observe.
our knowledge, the universe is not centered around humans and we are insignificant. But for us to be here, all the stuff including big bang, formation of first atoms, stars, supernova explosions creating heavier elements or whatever, needed to happen before we appeared. So you need to simulate a complete world to simulate our perceptions. It is impossible to fake it, while keeping the consistency of the rest of the world.
Chris wrote: Uhhh this is how science works. You think of something then you try to find evidence supporting it. Look at gravity waves discovery for example or quantum entanglement and so on.
That's not exactly true. Given data you construct the theory, which fits the data. The theory might have additional implications (such as those gravitational waves), so you if the theory seems plausible, you try to measure, if those consequences are there. It is actually the typical way to disprove the theory.
iCS wrote: Hard to prove anything in a world where you can't talk about anything which is different from the "official" opinion. Well, you are allowed to talk, but there is a very high chance that you'll find yourself stigmatized very quickly.
This is true only for politically changed problems, or liberal studies bullshit. If you come up with a new predictive model, which predicts something measurable, which other models don't, or if you measure something unexpected, you might end up with a Nobel prize. Lots of examples from the near past (broken CP/T symmetry etc)
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 20 Mar 2018, 17:13

milagros wrote:
20 Mar 2018, 14:15
gimp wrote: Correct me if I am wrong, but in Nick Bostrom's argument he does not care about all the atoms in the universe. The math he computes is only concerned about the human mind and the synapses in it that allow it to have thought, sense, and observe.
you need to simulate a complete world to simulate our perceptions. It is impossible to fake it, while keeping the consistency of the rest of the world.
Milagros, you make a good point, but I do not think you know that it will be impossible to fake it in say..... 100,000 years? Bostrom's entire paper of course is based on the empirical fact that if the human race does not perish, it will one day be able to fake it. I will quote from Bostrom's paper which addresses your argument. He is basically saying you do not need to simulate a complete world to fake it:

"If the environment is included in the simulation, this will require additional computing power – how much depends on the scope and granularity of the simulation. Simulating the entire universe down to the quantum level is obviously infeasible, unless radically new physics is discovered. But in order to get a realistic simulation of human experience, much less is needed – only whatever is required to ensure that the simulated humans, interacting in normal human ways with their simulated environment, don’t notice any irregularities. The microscopic structure of the inside of the Earth can be safely omitted. Distant astronomical objects can have highly compressed representations: verisimilitude need extend to the narrow band of properties that we can observe from our planet or solar system spacecraft. On the surface of Earth, macroscopic objects in inhabited areas may need to be continuously simulated, but microscopic phenomena could likely be filled in ad hoc. What you see through an electron microscope needs to look unsuspicious, but you usually have no way of confirming its coherence with unobserved parts of the microscopic world. Exceptions arise when we deliberately design systems to harness unobserved microscopic phenomena that operate in accordance with known principles to get results that we are able to independently verify. The paradigmatic case of this is a computer. The simulation may therefore need to include a continuous representation of computers down to the level of individual logic elements. This presents no problem, since our current computing power is negligible by posthuman standards.

Moreover, a posthuman simulator would have enough computing power to keep track of the detailed belief-states in all human brains at all times. Therefore, when it saw that a human was about to make an observation of the microscopic world, it could fill in sufficient detail in the simulation in the appropriate domain on an as-needed basis. Should any error occur, the director could easily edit the states of any brains that have become aware of an anomaly before it spoils the simulation. Alternatively, the director could skip back a few seconds and rerun the simulation in a way that avoids the problem.

It thus seems plausible that the main computational cost in creating simulations that are indistinguishable from physical reality for human minds in the simulation resides in simulating organic brains down to the neuronal or sub-neuronal level.[9] While it is not possible to get a very exact estimate of the cost of a realistic simulation of human history, we can use ~1033 - 1036 operations as a rough estimate[10]. As we gain more experience with virtual reality, we will get a better grasp of the computational requirements for making such worlds appear realistic to their visitors. But in any case, even if our estimate is off by several orders of magnitude, this does not matter much for our argument. We noted that a rough approximation of the computational power of a planetary-mass computer is 1042 operations per second, and that assumes only already known nanotechnological designs, which are probably far from optimal. A single such a computer could simulate the entire mental history of humankind (call this an ancestor-simulation) by using less than one millionth of its processing power for one second. A posthuman civilization may eventually build an astronomical number of such computers. We can conclude that the computing power available to a posthuman civilization is sufficient to run a huge number of ancestor-simulations even it allocates only a minute fraction of its resources to that purpose. We can draw this conclusion even while leaving a substantial margin of error in all our estimates."

To sum up what he is saying - we only need to simulate enough of the environment to keep the simulated humans from becoming suspicious. I don't see why this is impossible. It would pretty much just be earth and the moon right now and the things we "look at" through our telescopes and microscopes. Of course it would all take careful monitoring.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by milagros » 20 Mar 2018, 17:47

gimp wrote:
20 Mar 2018, 17:13
Milagros, you make a good point, but I do not think you know that it will be impossible to fake it in say..... 100,000 years?
if you do a setup, where you simulate each person independently with it's own fake world, then it all doesn't make any sense. Why would anyone do it just for the sake of simulating some random Joe in his own world?The interesting part about building your own universes is to explore what could have happen, what kind of life forms can emerge, etc. If you just fake it with fake experiences, you are bound to to the limitations of your faking algorithms.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 20 Mar 2018, 18:56

I think he is saying that you will be simulating a civilization, independent minds yes, but we are sharing the simulation together. I guess you would do this to observe the way humans act in society from a more god-like overall view, you would be using your own algorithms, but maybe you will have data to get close to your own reality. or maybe post-humans would do it just because we can.... I mean why did we go to the moon? it doesn't serve any real purpose, but that's just what we humans do, if something seems cool and we have the technology to do it, we go do it, and even spend amazing amounts of resources to do so.

Also, it sounds like we have shifted our conversation, and you are now agreeing that it is possible to create a simulation where humans interact, but that the real humans simply wont have the motivation to create it or care to create do it. If you agree with that statement, then that is one of the three things Bostrom's paper is arguing to be true as well.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by milagros » 20 Mar 2018, 20:13

gimp wrote:
20 Mar 2018, 18:56
Also, it sounds like we have shifted our conversation, and you are now agreeing that it is possible to create a simulation where humans interact, but that the real humans simply wont have the motivation to create it or care to create do it. If you agree with that statement, then that is one of the three things Bostrom's paper is arguing to be true as well.
If you want to convincingly simulate only things that are "visible" to the character, you have to simulate the whole system, otherwise the person might find inconsistencies.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by milagros » 20 Mar 2018, 23:41

just to make things clear : all the simulation hypotheses claim, we are living in a simulation, because lots of computers might be capable of simulating the whole universe. That is contrary to the virtual reality, where we try to render just the perceptions from someone's point of view. This 2nd thing is of course possible and over time will get more and more realistic. So there is no point in simulating the whole life, but it is more suitable for entertainment. Once it is all local to one person, you are constrained to the fake environment and then it is not interesting from the scientific point of view either. And it is not what is considered under the term "simulation hypothesis".
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Tigro » 21 Mar 2018, 18:51

Also I think Occam's razor kills the theory a bit. It reminds me of the "there was no moon landing" conspiracy theory. If there was no moon landing and people have been just faking it, it would cost much more money, time and effort than to actually land on the moon.
So why simulate and live in a fake universe when we can actually live in the true one?

Also I want to ask gimp why does he want to believe we are in a simulation (If there is no real telling if we are in one or not)?
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 21 Mar 2018, 19:29

Occam's razor can not apply to the origin of universe as a logical reasoning tool. As there is no simple answer with least assumptions. For example, "god made it", comes with a truckload of questions. even the big bang theory is not that simple of an answer to me.

to answer your question, when I originally wrote this, it was a bit different than Bostrom's paper. being in the matrix with our real bodies hooked up to something means I get to live again after I die here, or maybe just go into another simulation.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Tigro » 21 Mar 2018, 21:45

I didn't mention Occam's razor to say God created the world or anything like that. All it was meant for was to point out that there is no reason for anybody to have a real life and create a simulated copy of that life on top of it just because they can. It would eat up so much resources that nobody sane would ever do that. (Just an opinion, so..)
gimp wrote:
21 Mar 2018, 19:29
to answer your question, when I originally wrote this, it was a bit different than Bostrom's paper. being in the matrix with our real bodies hooked up to something means I get to live again after I die here, or maybe just go into another simulation.
So basically you search for eternal life? Also, (I may be wrong) being in a simulation strips off any responsibility for your actions, which is something you'd like since doing some terrible shit without any real consequence is perceived as positive. If this is true, then the desire for the reality of being in a simulation actually serves as a runaway from the general harshness of this world.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 22 Mar 2018, 01:11

Pretty much just the eternal life part for me. Even if this is a simulation, there is still a lot of pain and consequences i dont want to happen to me... And also i try to be a good person.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Sunshine » 22 Mar 2018, 18:58

not sure I get milas point. it seems trivial to make the simulation seem real to observers inside the simulation and hide any inconsistencies. we would have no idea if the relayed images coming from voyager were actually real or a simulation just sent fake radio signal of whatever they wanted us to see to make the simulation seem convincing and self-consistent. similarly any experiments we run could be tampered with to produce any results and we would have no way to actually verify anything.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Sunshine » 22 Mar 2018, 19:02

milagros wrote:
20 Mar 2018, 23:41
just to make things clear : all the simulation hypotheses claim, we are living in a simulation, because lots of computers might be capable of simulating the whole universe. And it is not what is considered under the term "simulation hypothesis".
quoted part from bostroms paper in gimps post specifically states that simulating the entire universe is not necessary
But in order to get a realistic simulation of human experience, much less is needed – only whatever is required to ensure that the simulated humans, interacting in normal human ways with their simulated environment, don’t notice any irregularities. The microscopic structure of the inside of the Earth can be safely omitted. Distant astronomical objects can have highly compressed representations: verisimilitude need extend to the narrow band of properties that we can observe from our planet or solar system spacecraft. On the surface of Earth, macroscopic objects in inhabited areas may need to be continuously simulated, but microscopic phenomena could likely be filled in ad hoc.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Tigro » 22 Mar 2018, 19:03

This is getting bigger than Flat Earth conspiracy theory.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by milagros » 22 Mar 2018, 19:40

my point is that there is no point in simulating single person's perception except for entertainment
we are not living in such simulation, if we were, you are all fake anyway:)
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by ribot » 22 Mar 2018, 21:26

Going back to the original question, existential philosophy is something I've invested a lot of time in. Not reading books and stuff, but making sense of it for myself through rigorous practice.

There are some main differences between existential questions and worldly questions. Worldly questions are basically things you can comprehend with your mind. Like you can believe in something and then later on you can prove it to be untrue. And it's basically the limit of the discussion with almost any person.

When it comes to existential matters it's different though. There are several crucial differences that changes everything when it comes to existential matters:
- First of all, you have to accept that you can't understand the nature of existence. In other words regardless of what hypothesis you explore, you will not understand existence fully.
- Second of all, science and everything that is understandable is based on cause and effect. Existential questions have to go beyond that, so you always get to the point of "who created God" or "who created the big bang", and if we assume it was X then who created X... so whether something came before or not - both scenarios are incomprehensible.
- Things like truth and reality are no longer defined. We can define them by our world experience but that limits it to our capacity of everyday thinking. Ultimately reality has no commitment to adjust to our ideas of truth, reality or logic. Therefore we have to define what is real and then investigate its accordance with things as what they are.

For these reasons there is really no way to come close to understanding existence by any normal means. Science and logic are great and can help us go somewhat beyond our own biases, but I've already outlined our other basic biases that prevent us from even getting a glimpse of ultimate reality.

Now when it comes to religious conviction, it can also be on different levels. There is the religious conviction that the bible is the ultimate truth of God, but there is also the path of self knowledge, which might seem similar to those who have no clue of the huge difference.

The difference is that you can experience things which are beyond the convictions of our everyday minds. This is something I have gone very deeply into, and taken more effort than the efforts of finishing a university programme of several years.

Suppose our subconscious is capable of assessing reality in more real ways than our mental capacity to hypothize. So it's not that you think of a way to explain existence, but instead you access another dimension of your own consciouness and discover that nature of the cosmic consciosness-energy or eternal flux. You no longer explain things as explanations take you away into circles of ideas you are not sure of... but instead you dream life from the essence of its foundation... well this is not something you can do with that circle of ideas of the everyday mind, but rather you have to learn to activate another part of your brain... only to discover that there are higher order of truths.

So if the world were a computer you would start to be machine code instead of writing the pseudo code that replicates the machine.

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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 23 Mar 2018, 02:31

Ribot - I'm not going to lie, your post will take a while for me to understand. Nonetheless, i like how you are always so positive about things, i always like reading your posts :)
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by gimp » 23 Mar 2018, 03:30

Tigro wrote:
22 Mar 2018, 19:03
This is getting bigger than Flat Earth conspiracy theory.
Tigro - despite your apparent sarcasm, I hope it does get bigger than the flat earth conspiracy. i would only hope it would get bigger because people saw some objective truth to it as a real possibility. Like Ribot said (I think), I'm not sure we can guarantee anything, we can only make our best guesses. And it is okay to have multiple guesses :)
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Grace » 23 Mar 2018, 04:35

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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Tigro » 23 Mar 2018, 09:14

I was not being sarcastic (very much) and my post was a reaction to Jappe's post about hiding all the stuff, which again is imo invalidated by No Moon Landing conspiracy argument.
ribot wrote:Second of all, science and everything that is understandable is based on cause and effect. Existential questions have to go beyond that, so you always get to the point of "who created God" or "who created the big bang", and if we assume it was X then who created X... so whether something came before or not - both scenarios are incomprehensible.
This is a very valid point. It almost always comes to this when I'm in a discussion about the origin of everything.
If you backtrack the creation as much as possible, you usually end with God or Big Bang or something similar, and can't go beyond, just as you said. Now a person can only guess or assume what is (was) going on.
One answer is that there is always some predecessor creating the "oldest" creator. That has a problem with time itself. Who invented time and the nuance of "before" and "after"?
Another answer is that this backward process has a beginning in a sense. This must then mean, that the very first entity to be is (was) uncreated, and was here. This is usually where in discussion we can agree and assume this is the case. Nobody can ever prove or disprove this, so nobody is "more right" or has "more valid" opinion than the other. The only discussion then is, what is this proto-entity. I say God, some say BigBang, some say Flux of some energy, etc.
Then it comes to something gimp has brought up in the first post - the likelihood of those being the case. he says BB is about 20% and deity around .1 or so. For me at this point, uncreated deity is more acceptable answer both chance-wise and logic-wise. We all know that scientists operate with those infinitesimal likelihoods and colossal timespans when talking about evolution. This reduces the likelihood of going from BB-Evolution-Microorgs-Evolution-HigherOrgs-Evolution-...-...-...-Human to such a tiny chance that believing this is harder than believing in a transcendent being.
Logic argument for God (assuming there is something uncreated, of course) is, that the order the world is in very possibly requires an intelligent design, therefore needs a designer. All the physical laws, mathematics, even the sheer look of the nature can indicate a "reason".
Why this answer is generally frowned upon and unaccepted? Imo it's human's pride. Assuming the existence of designing (and caring) transcendent entity means we are no longer the center of (conscious) universe, no longer masters of our life and we now have responsibility for our actions. I guess nobody likes that. Believing some simulation or chain of unguided random events strips you off any responsibility whatsoever, only recreating it later as a social construct, which is more nicely-looking for us subjectively.
So in the end it comes to emotio rather than ratio.
ribot wrote:Suppose our subconscious is capable of assessing reality in more real ways than our mental capacity to hypothize.
Why can we make such an assumption?
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by ribot » 23 Mar 2018, 10:02

Tigro wrote:
23 Mar 2018, 09:14
Why can we make such an assumption?
Tigro, my point is not to make assumptions. In my post I was talking about my discovery. In other words I claim that our subconscious has this capability. Now, in order for you to evaluate this idea you have to suppose it's true just for the process of evaluation. Of course this means both to evaluate with logics but also with experience. After you have enough experience to verify what I was talking about you can debunk my idea :)


gimp wrote:
23 Mar 2018, 02:31
Ribot - I'm not going to lie, your post will take a while for me to understand. Nonetheless, i like how you are always so positive about things, i always like reading your posts :)
Thanks gimp! I'm glad someone reads and even appreciate my posts :) I do spend quite some effort on the philosophy ones.

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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by milagros » 23 Mar 2018, 11:44

ribot wrote:
23 Mar 2018, 10:02
After you have enough experience to verify what I was talking about you can debunk my idea :)
You can't debunk this idea. A brain is capable to creating arbitrary hallucinations, which is non-debunkable, but doesn't have no have anything to do with reality.

I agree with some parts of ribot's post. The nature of reality is not understandable. There is a huge range of possible options, indistinguishable by any measurement. The main question - why is there anything at all (universe, god, ..) - remains unanswerable. My take-on on this problem is this:
In our universe, things exist because they can. It might sound stupid, but any particle exists, because there was a non-zero probability, they can be created and any of these creation events are random. I believe we can extrapolate this property outside of our universe, and then our universe exists, because it can. That also implies that everything that can exists, also "does". Somehow there is no distinction between the physical existence and the mere possibility of existence.

The only thing that should exists outside of our universe is math. Math is a self-consistent set of axioms including the laws of logic in the system, which can derive additional rules, valid in the system (unfortunately, such system can not be both complete and self-consistent). A universe, to our knowledge, is such an algebraic structure with its own rules. The perceived evolution in time does not play any role, it is just another dimension of this algebraic structure.

Conclusions - self-consistent algebraic structure exists, because they can and there is no distinction in the possibility of their existence and the existence itself. Universes correspond to such math structures; some of them we would not call universes at all (there can be no time, multi times, or completely retarded ones - like a space of feasible rubik cube states, ..). Whatever self-consistent actually is, because it can. Makes sense;)
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by ribot » 23 Mar 2018, 15:25

The thing mila is what basis do you have to say what is debunkable, what is the reality of a hallucination, or what reality really is? As I've already explained you have to go back to the core axioms of any ideas you suggest in order to even have an opinion.

For that reason logic is too formal, because human conception of a logical reality is way too poor. You will have to tune in to the very reality of being human, which is not logical understanding, but being a flow of ideas as of human nature. When you flow in your own true nature, not being stuck in deduction or proving logical reasonings, then you have the chance to understand your own consciousness.

In other words our limits as human beings is our consciousness, or more precisely the limits of our access to our own process of clustering human perception into the thing we call reality. Accessing your true nature is by far a more exact replica of our reality than logic. Not because human nature is more correct but because that is the only thing we have.

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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by milagros » 23 Mar 2018, 21:27

i meant you can't distinguish your own hallucinations from their true nature
that's why any conclusions are not debunkable
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by ribot » 24 Mar 2018, 06:45

Actually mila in that case you cannot distinguish hallucinations from your understanding of science either. In other words you don't know if your model is based on hallucinations or logical understanding.

This again makes my method more reliable, since you can distinguish hallucinations from higher order of truths. You can do this by deep understanding of how your mind works. You cannot do it with science alone, because it is your mind that interprets science. As humans we are limited to our minds, but we can transcend our minds and learn that our minds are not the best way to experience reality in its most direct form. You can only learn this from experience of transcending the mind, and not from the experience of debate.

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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by ribot » 24 Mar 2018, 06:46

The thing is that it's really difficult to understand conceptual abstractions rather than using examples. So I will explain what I said here in an analogy instead.

Suppose the human experience of reality is the world of elasto mania, and the ultimate reality is the windows operating system. In this way we experience only a fraction of ultimate reality, because the human experience is to experience polygons, verteces, apples, flowers, killers and movement of the bike.

Now the world of science consists of analysis of polygons, apple bugs, wheel pops, zweq spins and so on. The world of religion is pretty much based on not using volt keys, since that is evil because Balazs said they were not originally intended to use. However, religion is also talking about the myth of the operating system, of which there is no evidence, because there is nothing like the operating system in the world of elma. It is also worth noting that religious people are more concerned with who is using the volt key and who isn't rather than scientifically investigating the operating system (which would be blasphemy).

Science explains the physics of the bike and the details of how to make advanced tricks for driving wr's. Now what mila is saying, and we had this discussion many years ago too, is that there is no way for the kuski to know of the operating system. This is certainly a possibility, that the kuski cannot access any information outside the scope of levels and elma physics.

What ribot is suggesting, is that there is a function in the elma code that has access to the full memory of the operating system. Now in elma there might not be such a function programmed, and perhaps the windows operating system does not allow any function to read everything.

However, the ultimate reality of humanity is not limited to how elma and windows are coded. We have to imagine an alternate version of elma and windows, where there is the full memory function programmed, since this is certainly a logical possibility.

Now the full memory function does not deal with polygons or apples. It deals directly with machine code, or 1's and 0's. In other words it is something absurd, since the world consists of laws of physics and polygons, and such a thing as machine code is what religious people talk about.

So now I am suggesting here how to access this full memory function of the human world - through meditation and experience of the subconscious mind. In other words we cannot press the buttons of gas, break and volt, but we have to press the shift+break. This key combination is absurd, it's just as absurd as doing an ayahuasca ceremony, and whatever we experienced there is not real, it's made up. Scientists know that because science, so they don't even need to try to press shift+break, because there is no evicence that such a thing as 1's and 0's exist. (What evidence would there be other than crazy ppl who talk about it because they cannot accept that they one day have to die?).

Then ribot is saying that worldly knowledge (of apples and polygons) is not the way to understand existence. In fact it is not describing the true reality, but instead it is describing an imaginary world. Elma world does not consist of apples and polygons (which science explains), but 1's and 0's that resemble apples and polygons.

Ribot is saying you have to access the subconscious, and press those keys that are taboo to press. Not only is it taboo to press those keys, but when you press them your experience makes no sense of all. All we ever talk about is the apples and polygons, and suddenly you have an experience of 1's and 0's - you've gone crazy. Take your meds please.

But ribot didn't care if he was crazy, instead he made madness a lifestyle. He didn't learn about the apples and polygons (as university studies), or about becoming a good kuski (working for money). Instead he put most of his time in learning about the truth, or in other words to make sense of those 1's and 0's.

Now those 1's and 0's are what spiritual people call energies (and consciousness). And the more you learn about them you understand that you can experience not only elma as 1's and 0's (as energy or flux), but you can also access other computer games (other [astral] dimensions) which consists of the same 1's and 0's.

After some time you realize that the whole universe (windows operating system) consists of 1's and 0's, and you have access to it because the full memory function is programmed into your subconscious mind. It might take a lifetime of very dedicated work to make sense of those 1's and 0's, but it is accessible to all of us.

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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by Sunshine » 25 Mar 2018, 19:32

you can ask two (or more) people who claim to have accessed "astral" dimensions to retrieve/access some specific location or whatever there is in the dimension and if they produce the same result independently we could conclude that its something real. i dont really know what you would ask them to do though since i have no idea of the nature of those things or what they are supposed to be. maybe ribot can clarify and formulate an experiment
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by iCS » 26 Mar 2018, 00:36

Nice sayings, Ribot.
ribot wrote:
24 Mar 2018, 06:46
Now those 1's and 0's are what spiritual people call energies
Let's invert this:
"Now those energies (electrical impulses) what IT people call 1's and 0's..." :)

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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by milagros » 26 Mar 2018, 14:06

ribot wrote:
24 Mar 2018, 06:46
However, religion is also talking about the myth of the operating system, of which there is no evidence, because there is nothing like the operating system in the world of elma.
There is also a myth the bug bounces happen, because gods are angry, because the kuski didn't take apples in the same order as the creator intended. There are many other myths too; such as alovolt being from the devil and online version is just connection to the alternate reality of the kuski. There is even an experiment confirming apples don't disappear, if another kuski takes them. It is very likely that all myths are made up bullshit, used to control kuski's behavior, so that they can't do wrs and wrs keep belonging to secret societies (WNO, EF, or .dat, or even ancient FM). It is only a pure coincidence, that the operating system myth is true. Most likely all human myths are false.
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Re: We are living in the matrix, and i need your help

Post by farnsworth » 26 Mar 2018, 14:57

We all live in our own matrices.

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