yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitness

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the pool where 90% of people vote in favor of legitness

stini's bug is not legit, so revert to best legit time in next table
11
23%
stini's bug is not legit, but keep it because it was once by mistake allowed
24
51%
stini's bug is in fact legit, so please stop arguing whether to keep it or not
12
26%
 
Total votes: 47

anonymous32
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yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitness

Post by anonymous32 » 26 Oct 2011, 00:03

let it here be determined if people really are in favor of future record-table legitness.

as a follow-up to "cancel stini's enigma wr?" topic --
Lukazz wrote:
seems legit, let's do it
note that such a revert has been done in the past (through the cause of cheating, though).

edit: just a sane and due movement towards a more professional and respectable topic title.
Last edited by anonymous32 on 31 Oct 2011, 20:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: the petition where 90% of people

Post by Bludek » 26 Oct 2011, 00:22

why do you care so much about Stini's record to be removed?
There were many discussions about it in the past. Nothing will change now. It's officially legit and it will stay like that.

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Re: the petition where 90% of people

Post by Madness » 26 Oct 2011, 10:00

I don't think it should be removed. It's hard to determine what's bug and what not. Stini's bounce looks max impossible in my eyes, but on the other hand, Thunder's bounce is even stronger and looks fine to me since I've got many bounces like that... Let it be as it is.

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Re: the petition where 90% of people

Post by Grace » 26 Oct 2011, 10:30

Stini's rec isn't even buggy, gtfo. :)

No.

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Re: the petition where 90% of people

Post by anonymous32 » 26 Oct 2011, 12:32

I respect all your answers. However, I thought it was granted that bounces were bugs.

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Re: the petition where 90% of people

Post by Grace » 26 Oct 2011, 12:34

Then why the focus on stini's enigma, why not ALL enigma wrs with bounces, all lab pro and bowling, all labyrinth, all hifly?

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Re: the petition where 90% of people

Post by anonymous32 » 31 Oct 2011, 13:33

Because most bugs are legit.

See, I am not sure most people who voted were well-enough aware of the terminology to warrant their voting in the first place.

It might have been a mistake to treat this issue democratically. Consensus through intelligent and informed discussion might have been a better choice.

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Re: the petition where 90% of people

Post by Igge » 31 Oct 2011, 14:51

anonymous32 wrote:It might have been a mistake to treat this issue democratically. Consensus through intelligent and informed discussion might have been a better choice.
Well you wouldn't have been part of that intelligent discussion, that's for sure))

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Re: the petition where 90% of people

Post by Grace » 31 Oct 2011, 15:06

anonymous32 wrote:Because most bugs are legit.

See, I am not sure most people who voted were well-enough aware of the terminology to warrant their voting in the first place.

It might have been a mistake to treat this issue democratically. Consensus through intelligent and informed discussion might have been a better choice.
You must be trolling. You've come in here, attempted to insult our intelligence and yet countered your own argument more effectively than anyone else could all in one post. :D

Bye.

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Re: the petition where 90% of people

Post by Zweq » 31 Oct 2011, 15:38

Certain type of bounces are prone to bugs, these occur in bowling, enigma, hang tight to name a few. However, many type of bounces aren't bugs at all. Bounces for example in serpents tale or islands in the sky wouldn't be affected at all if the "bug" was fixed.

That being said enigma WR is a bug, but bugs have been accepted before that, like ramone hang tight WR from 2000. It was always up to the WR updater to decide what's a legit amount of velocity gained from a bounce. Stini's record was accepted by px and that's it, what we should discuss about are the unconfirmed bugs in enigma and possibly other levs.

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Re: the petition where 90% of people

Post by anonymous32 » 31 Oct 2011, 20:14

Zweq wrote:However, many type of bounces aren't bugs at all.
This is precisely what I was talking about. I thought all kinds of bounces were bugs. Furthermore, I thought it was the consensus around here. I am baffled. (Seriously.)

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by SveinR » 31 Oct 2011, 22:49

All bounces were (fortunate) bugs in Across. In Elma however, Balazs deliberately did not remove bounces because of the great gameplay effects they gave, hence they should no longer be considered bugs. Likewise with the supervolt.
Was it cast for the mass who burn and toil?
Or for the vultures who thirst for blood and oil?
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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by anonymous32 » 1 Nov 2011, 00:39

That, or the unintended (although fortunate) result springing from the common physical model from which both Across and Elma were built.

I get the point you are making, though. All might be a matter of perspective. It is hard for me to form an opinion considering what you are bringing.

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by totem » 1 Nov 2011, 00:47

isn't it possible to represent a bounce as an acceleration graph ? it would be interesting to see each rec's curve;

and maybe after many deliberations determine a value afterwhich a bounce is considered as a bug. or not.

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by pawq » 1 Nov 2011, 00:59

christ, I expressed that idea ages ago, in various forms, including comparisons of energy... nobody seemed to care :/

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Zweq » 1 Nov 2011, 09:43

well like sveinr implied, bug is an unintended feature, that's the very definition. Bounces were apparently intended for elma, but the ones that give wheel some weird reactions were not. It doesn't matter if that reaction is small or big, it's still a bug (even if it's weaker than "intended bounce"). Only reasonable fix for this is complete removal (of the bug from elma code (edit))

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by klisse » 1 Nov 2011, 22:29

What about levels like Animal Farm, Shelf Life, Sink where wheels squeezes into small areas, isn't that the same as bug bug-bounce? Why should they be legit?

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by anonymous32 » 2 Nov 2011, 00:12

I suggest that what should be considered legit is what could be considered with technique "reproducible."

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Grace » 2 Nov 2011, 00:26

Stini's rec is reproducable.

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by anonymous32 » 2 Nov 2011, 12:55

It must be kept in mind though that, to date, 70% of voters have considered the bounce as "illegit."

It would be nice if some of them could explain the reasons they have considered it as, let it be put that way, "flunking admissibility."

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Igge » 2 Nov 2011, 13:21

Boy, do you try hard to sound smart.

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Grace » 2 Nov 2011, 21:34

The fact remains that we've had this conversation ~10000 times in the past, getting less and less frequent as time as gone on, and here is how the polls have ended throughout time:

it's a bug, remove teh: 0 wins
it's a bug, leave teh: 9001 wins
it's no bug, fuck you bro: 999 wins

We can go ahead and throw definitions behind it, but if they decide on friday "lol the queen and her family actually has no royal blood at all roflcakes" they aren't going to chuck her out at the age of oldasfuck.

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by anonymous32 » 5 Nov 2011, 01:42

Haruhi wrote:We can go ahead and throw definitions behind it, but if they decide on friday "lol the queen and her family actually has no royal blood at all roflcakes" they aren't going to chuck her out at the age of oldasfuck.
I get what you are meaning, Haruhi.

You may agree with me, though, that, at second glance, the real argument might simply be whether the bounce is to be considered legit or not. Furthermore, I believe it in fact is necessary to, as you are putting it, "throw definitions behind it." However, not necessarily to change the WR-table contents, as I above implied, but at least to move towards all being on the same wavelength.

Of course, the contents of that discussion still are to be determined. Mathematical modeling? I am hungry for it. Practical-reproducibility concerns? I am listening. (And so forth.)

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by anonymous32 » 5 Nov 2011, 01:45

Igge wrote:Boy, do you try hard to sound smart.
Igge, perhaps you are right, and I actually am trying hard to sound smart. However, to move it towards you, why would you not, just for once in this topic, put some effort into sounding relevant?

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Grace » 5 Nov 2011, 03:56

Alright well, here:

On reproducability: The bounce is entirely reproducable.

On legitimacy: I personally think the replay is legitimate, but most people don't. However, i note here that Thunder's bounce had no bug in it, got a faster bounce and ended at 19.16 as well.

On mathematics: Maybe if there was a way of plotting the "speed" of a rec that eol reads, we could compare the speed gain on this bounce and on many other bounce recs, and perhaps set a limit as to the maximum instant gain in speed allowed before it became classed as a "bug." This might already be possible with elmanager or something similar.

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Zweq » 5 Nov 2011, 09:16

enigma nonbug limit is around 19.4x, 19.5x and that's being 0.2 ahead of stini rec, assuming bugbounce was unintended and 'normal' bounce intended.

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Lukazz » 5 Nov 2011, 11:27

Zweq wrote:enigma nonbug limit is around 19.4x, 19.5x and that's being 0.2 ahead of stini rec, assuming bugbounce was unintended and 'normal' bounce intended.
wat? i don't see any bugs here http://up.k10x.net/jetszenicghju/47mi1914SL.rec

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Lousku » 5 Nov 2011, 14:18

I don't think we should be looking at the pop. A bounce can be buggy without a visible pop. Math is the only way to decide on the legitness of bounces imo. Something like this: if speed is higher after bounce then before, it's buggy. Simple enough? If not, explain why that wouldn't be fair/accurate.

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by milagros » 5 Nov 2011, 14:45

ez 17.0x

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Kopaka » 5 Nov 2011, 14:53

Lousku wrote:I don't think we should be looking at the pop. A bounce can be buggy without a visible pop. Math is the only way to decide on the legitness of bounces imo. Something like this: if speed is higher after bounce then before, it's buggy. Simple enough? If not, explain why that wouldn't be fair/accurate.
I recall that when mila was making the speedometer for eol he said it was impossible to make such accurate for replays.

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Lousku » 5 Nov 2011, 14:55

Kopaka wrote:
Lousku wrote:I don't think we should be looking at the pop. A bounce can be buggy without a visible pop. Math is the only way to decide on the legitness of bounces imo. Something like this: if speed is higher after bounce then before, it's buggy. Simple enough? If not, explain why that wouldn't be fair/accurate.
I recall that when mila was making the speedometer for eol he said it was impossible to make such accurate for replays.
Can still analyse recs and get the data somehow!

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by FinMan » 5 Nov 2011, 17:04

Well one thing that people forget often is that Stinis bounce got much of its force on the alo he used there. That's what makes calculating much harder also, you should calculate the force added in volt.

...

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by anpdad » 5 Nov 2011, 17:27

yeah, alo at 7:xx matters much for getting ridiculous bugbounces

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Madness » 5 Nov 2011, 18:39

Zweq wrote:enigma nonbug limit is around 19.4x, 19.5x [...]
Err... mila's 17,04 is perfectly acceptable!

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by abruzzi » 30 Nov 2011, 03:59

anonymous32 wrote:
Igge wrote:Boy, do you try hard to sound smart.
Igge, perhaps you are right, and I actually am trying hard to sound smart. However, to move it towards you, why would you not, just for once in this topic, put some effort into sounding relevant?

nicely igge punished \\\o

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Re: yet another poll about stini, enigma, and bounce legitne

Post by Mats » 3 Dec 2011, 12:18

abruzzi wrote:
anonymous32 wrote:
Igge wrote:Boy, do you try hard to sound smart.
Igge, perhaps you are right, and I actually am trying hard to sound smart. However, to move it towards you, why would you not, just for once in this topic, put some effort into sounding relevant?

nicely igge punished \\\o
Anonymous "Vlad Veselov" got teh wordish skillz

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