Do you want left alo in Elma 2?

Tigro · Post by **Tigro** » 23 Sep 2012, 21:39

http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8646
Your opinion?

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 23 Sep 2012, 22:29

In Elma 2 yes. In Elma 1.3 no.

Tigro · Post by **Tigro** » 23 Sep 2012, 22:31

yes, the same as me. depends how we determine elma 2. if it is relationship like fallout1 - fallout 2 (then yes), or like dota6,74 to dota6,75 (then no).

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 24 Sep 2012, 09:39

Poll looking pretty conclusive already

Pascal · Post by **Pascal** » 24 Sep 2012, 12:08

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 24 Sep 2012, 13:04

Why not? Is there any meaningful reason to only have the right alovolt?

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 24 Sep 2012, 13:57

I like the inequality. If left alo is added, mirrored levels have exactly the same styles.

analcactus · Post by **analcactus** » 24 Sep 2012, 14:08

i wants no elma 2

trew · Post by **trew** » 24 Sep 2012, 14:51

I wonder if elma would've died if alovolt or supervolt didn't exist. Imagine playing with only normal volts.

Bludek · Post by **Bludek** » 24 Sep 2012, 15:02

I think it would not. It is fun as hell even with normal volts only.

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 24 Sep 2012, 19:25

I think it should be a fun little addition with two possible ways to implement it without interfering with current Elma records.

1. Left alo would only be possible to use in NEW levels made in Elma 2 with an optional box checked that allows it to be used in that level, therefore in no way interfering with internals or records in levels made prior to Elma 2.
or
2. Left alo could be used anywhere anytime (unless specifically disabled in a battle) but records made using it would be saved separately, just like "one wheel", "no brakes" etc. times.

If "Yes" implied one of these options, the poll would surely have a different outcome.

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 24 Sep 2012, 22:55

It will interfere with current Elma records anyway, as it's probably gonna be made to run at a given constant fps regardless of vsync and bug bounces might be eliminated... Which is pretty much the main point of making this Elma 2, isn't it?

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 24 Sep 2012, 23:04

Better hurry up and make shelf life wr before it's impossible

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 25 Sep 2012, 02:17

Madness wrote:Why not? Is there any meaningful reason to only have the right alovolt?

yes, right alo was in elma from the beginning as a bug (?lol ye nice bug) and some patch just made it easier to use. left alo was never a part of elma.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » 25 Sep 2012, 05:07

I like the fact that alovolt is exclusively one way.
It makes a big deal of difference to an uphill level whether it slopes up left or right, a flat track level whether you drive left or right, and ofcourse in every other type of level where any single trick is performed from the left or from the right.

I like it like this.

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 25 Sep 2012, 07:40

Lee wrote:I like the fact that alovolt is exclusively one way.
It makes a big deal of difference to an uphill level whether it slopes up left or right, a flat track level whether you drive left or right, and ofcourse in every other type of level where any single trick is performed from the left or from the right.

I like it like this.

Eggsactlkcly what I was thinking. Left alo only for specifically designated levels, if at all.

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 25 Sep 2012, 09:15

Pawq wrote:
Madness wrote:Why not? Is there any meaningful reason to only have the right alovolt?
yes, right alo was in elma from the beginning as a bug (?lol ye nice bug) and some patch just made it easier to use. left alo was never a part of elma.

So you want bug bounces in Elma 2 too, as they have been there ever since? Also, if you don't want anything new, why would you want a new Elma? Your logic is flawed ._.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 25 Sep 2012, 09:32

mind your own logic, i want elma to be improved, not changed into a different game. and i loved bugbounces.

culinko · Post by **culinko** » 25 Sep 2012, 09:36

Madness wrote:
Pawq wrote:
Madness wrote:Why not? Is there any meaningful reason to only have the right alovolt?
yes, right alo was in elma from the beginning as a bug (?lol ye nice bug) and some patch just made it easier to use. left alo was never a part of elma.
So you want bug bounces in Elma 2 too, as they have been there ever since? Also, if you don't want anything new, why would you want a new Elma? Your logic is flawed ._.

we want new features and bug fixes, not altering physics

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 25 Sep 2012, 09:54

Then there should be a discussion of whether we want the physics exactly the same with all of its flaws or eliminating bugs, having it run at a constant fps and stuff. In the second case it would be quite fair to include the left alovolt as well.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 25 Sep 2012, 10:05

i don't like the idea of fps not altering the game. maybe it's a bug, but it's one of those amazing hilarious features that make this game so damn unique! let's remove bugbounces, fps behavious and stuff like that and it will become xmoto with bigger elasticity :/

and i generally condemn the idea of altering the game's physics in any way.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 25 Sep 2012, 13:08

You really can't compare fps and bug bounces. All fps values are allowed in record tables, bug bounces are not allowed. Eliminating bug bounces would just make it easier to trust a recordtable that doesn't require people to upload replays (and even with replays you can't be 100% sure). A constant fps would make some tricks harder or impossible(vsync holes), but you could also argue it would just make it more fair (like alovolt did for example) because it would be even for all, and it would not make any WRs easier. Left alo is a completely third thing, because it would make some WRs easier.

Anyway I'm with Xarthok, as a "mod" (or whatever you want to call it) where times is saved to special tables, I'm fine with left alo, and any other extreme thing like exploding bananas and teleports for that matter. But I like the basic gameplay as it is. But indeed there is still some decisions to be made about how to handle the physics.

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 25 Sep 2012, 13:23

Kopaka wrote:You really can't compare fps and bug bounces. All fps values are allowed in record tables, bug bounces are not allowed.

If you eliminate bug bounces, then the physics is not exactly the same, so you can't follow with the current Elma records anyway. So it's pretty much about the same.

FinMan · Post by **FinMan** » 25 Sep 2012, 13:26

1 alo is enough, i don't have enough working fingers to use the other.

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 25 Sep 2012, 13:41

Madness wrote:
Kopaka wrote:You really can't compare fps and bug bounces. All fps values are allowed in record tables, bug bounces are not allowed.
If you eliminate bug bounces, then the physics is not exactly the same, so you can't follow with the current Elma records anyway. So it's pretty much about the same.

Eliminating bug bounces is just elimnating something we already (are trying to) eliminate today through other means (checking replays, trusting people).

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 25 Sep 2012, 13:54

FinMan wrote:1 alo is enough, i don't have enough working fingers to use the other.

Put mouse in mouth and use teeth to alo with mouse1

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 25 Sep 2012, 13:59

I think mega brutals like in hi flyer(i mean the ones in 26.low rides) get a little boost from the same mechanic that causes bug bounces, but in a different way. So madness is right, if you change one thing, all records from the past 12 years are obsolete. And if you change one thing , you might as well change many things ._.

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 25 Sep 2012, 14:32

It goes like this:

Add left alo = stupid idea. - would be game changing. We don't WANT gamechanging, we want game-improving.
Eliminate bugbounces - can't see how it's possible without changing physics or limiting fps, neither of which we want to do. Perhaps could implement a feature that can see acceleration over a frame and have a limit on how much speed can be gained?
Eliminate fps: bad idea. Gets rid of uniqueness and tuning of elma, which we don't want. Would also make it impossible to do some tricks.

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 25 Sep 2012, 20:24

So basically change the intro picture and call it Elma 2.
Suck a bag of dicks.

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 25 Sep 2012, 21:10

Haruhi wrote:Eliminate fps: bad idea. Gets rid of uniqueness and tuning of elma, which we don't want. Would also make it impossible to do some tricks.

Pawq wrote:i don't like the idea of fps not altering the game. maybe it's a bug, but it's one of those amazing hilarious features that make this game so damn unique! let's remove bugbounces, fps behavious and stuff like that and it will become xmoto with bigger elasticity :/

What the hell... I had no idea anyone would even think of this stance.

My opinion: Elma should run equally on any setup. This is by far the biggest thing Elma2 can be.

Pawq and Haruhi, what do you think a new version would be useful for if NOT fixing gamebreaking bugs?

Bjenn · Post by **Bjenn** » 25 Sep 2012, 21:11

I don't want elma 2, I want improved EOL. If EOL went down and some Elma 2 came, I'm out yo.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 26 Sep 2012, 00:42

Bjenn wrote:I don't want elma 2, I want improved EOL. If EOL went down and some Elma 2 came, I'm out yo.

EXACTLY the same

lousq: adding/improving features that would enhance the gameplay a LOT, see some mopo list, like deleting replays ingame and billions of other stuff

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 26 Sep 2012, 03:42

Lousku wrote:
Haruhi wrote:Eliminate fps: bad idea. Gets rid of uniqueness and tuning of elma, which we don't want. Would also make it impossible to do some tricks.
Pawq wrote:i don't like the idea of fps not altering the game. maybe it's a bug, but it's one of those amazing hilarious features that make this game so damn unique! let's remove bugbounces, fps behavious and stuff like that and it will become xmoto with bigger elasticity :/
What the hell... I had no idea anyone would even think of this stance.

My opinion: Elma should run equally on any setup. This is by far the biggest thing Elma2 can be.

Pawq and Haruhi, what do you think a new version would be useful for if NOT fixing gamebreaking bugs?

It stems from your opinion of fps being gamebreaking - i don't think it is. We now have methods of making all fps values achievable by all people, so it's back to that state where the game is fair for everyone. It also comes down to a question of how do we standardise the fps? If we have - say - A 300fps only game, then you have: Hiflyer current wr pretty much impossible, shelf life current wr style impossible, flat track wr style impossible.

-

I think of elma2 as adding features and improving current features. Things like editor improvements, interface improvements, better sync with the database and so on. It's things that would normally be in patches (ie when texturing a polygon, have an option to change a polygon's texture rather than 99999999999x small masks.

Lee · Post by **Lee** » 26 Sep 2012, 05:28

This topic is about left alo. Don't bring FPS and bugs into the argument. The argument is Left Alo: YES or NO.

To support my previous comment:
Take for example a level that is perfectly symmetrical right down the middle. Same number of apples, flowers, killers on each side in perfect symmetry. Start position perfectly in the middle.
Which way do you go first, left or right? One way is obviously faster than the other.
Add a left alo into the equation and the decision is which way do you feel like going first, 'cause it doesn't matter anymore. With a left alo or "anti-alo" (as I'd rather call it from now on) that is another element of the game removed.
And the level doesn't even have to be symmetrical, it could be anything like "do I go under first and then over or the other way around, one way or the other I'm approaching each part from a different side and an alovolt could be used to do it quicker one way than the other, hmmmm...."

With the anti-alo it simplifies the game in a way, yet requires an extra finger. Something to think aboot!

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 26 Sep 2012, 09:49

I think it's not even about what would happen if left alo was there bla bla, this is moer about on the principle level about adding arbitrary features. You can alter pretty much X things about the physics model. Wheel size, gravity force, gravity direction, suspension length, suspension stiffness, wheel radius, amount of wheels, wheel elasticity, wheel friction, acceleration, polygon types(ice etc), invulnerability, head radius, volt timer (0.8s), volt impulse, alo delay, alo impulse, individual wheel handling (brake, acceleration). It goes on and on with these possible arbitrary changes, left alo is no different.

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 26 Sep 2012, 10:07

Zweq wrote:I think it's not even about what would happen if left alo was there bla bla, this is moer about on the principle level about adding arbitrary features. You can alter pretty much X things about the physics model. Wheel size, gravity force, gravity direction, suspension length, suspension stiffness, wheel radius, amount of wheels, wheel elasticity, wheel friction, acceleration, polygon types(ice etc), invulnerability, head radius, volt timer (0.8s), volt impulse, alo delay, alo impulse, individual wheel handling (brake, acceleration). It goes on and on with these possible arbitrary changes, left alo is no different.

Very much this. I don't see any more reason to add left alo than any of the above.

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 26 Sep 2012, 11:25

i want ice polygons!!

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 26 Sep 2012, 13:05

Haruhi wrote:We now have methods of making all fps values achievable by all people, so it's back to that state where the game is fair for everyone..

How's that? I haven't gotten past 60 in a few years.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 26 Sep 2012, 13:17

do you play elma on a toaster??

Madness · Post by **Madness** » 26 Sep 2012, 14:42

Seriously? I have a "calculator" from the previous century and I can get 1000 fps easily. Try to turn vsync off.

Tigro · Post by **Tigro** » 26 Sep 2012, 15:12

i was facing the same problem

madik said to me once: "try go for 300+ fps and you wont want to go lower then!" thats true.

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 26 Sep 2012, 18:09

Lousku wrote:
Haruhi wrote:We now have methods of making all fps values achievable by all people, so it's back to that state where the game is fair for everyone..
How's that? I haven't gotten past 60 in a few years.

i used to play on a computer with 256mb ram and a 512mhz processor. If you ran elma and ITunes side by side, you could still get up to 300ish. Unless you run elma on a tomato, i think you can get higher.

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 26 Sep 2012, 18:54

Haruhi wrote:i used to play on a computer with 256mb ram and a 512mhz processor. If you ran elma and ITunes side by side, you could still get up to 300ish.

That's still far from 999+. Besides, even if everyone could get any fps value, there'd still be a fuckton of randomness that ruins levels like Enigma.

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 26 Sep 2012, 19:38

i made 1.14 animal farm with 60 fps and random keypress delay. tru story

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 17 Oct 2012, 17:02

Ofcourse we want left alo. Duh.

BlaZtek · Post by **BlaZtek** » 7 Jan 2013, 20:24

Left alo, big mistake. Like LeeLand said, then it dosent matter anymore wich way you go n shit.
And like Haruhi said, we dont want a new game, we only want good improvments.

-BZ-

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 25 Feb 2013, 14:06

I think the best case would be leaving left alo out of the "main" Elma 2 (Internals, normal battles) but allow it as an option in NEW levels with a special flag or additionally special left alo battles in existing levels.

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 25 Feb 2013, 15:21

Xarthok wrote:I think the best case would be leaving left alo out of the "main" Elma 2 (Internals, normal battles) but allow it as an option in NEW levels with a special flag or additionally special left alo battles in existing levels.

I'm not sure why, but this sounds like the least convenient option. People who want to try leftalo styles in existing levels would have to remake the levels each time. If it were strictly a battle option, you couldn't keep playing after battle.

How about this: Leftalo is always possible to execute unless a battle has "leftalo cripple" on (I think people will agree that this should be the default setting, perhaps even requiring special battle rights to switch off). Default record lists exclude leftalo runs and there are separate lists including leftalo. This would keep normal record lists as they are while allowing anyone to play any lev with leftalo if they so wish.

Tigro · Post by **Tigro** » 25 Feb 2013, 16:51

Lousku wrote:How about this: Leftalo is always possible to execute unless a battle has "leftalo cripple" on (I think people will agree that this should be the default setting, perhaps even requiring special battle rights to switch off). Default record lists exclude leftalo runs and there are separate lists including leftalo. This would keep normal record lists as they are while allowing anyone to play any lev with leftalo if they so wish.

I don´t want brand new game. I want elma.

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 25 Feb 2013, 18:47

Tigro wrote:
Lousku wrote:How about this: Leftalo is always possible to execute unless a battle has "leftalo cripple" on (I think people will agree that this should be the default setting, perhaps even requiring special battle rights to switch off). Default record lists exclude leftalo runs and there are separate lists including leftalo. This would keep normal record lists as they are while allowing anyone to play any lev with leftalo if they so wish.
I don´t want brand new game. I want elma.

Cheese comes from tits.

But seriously, what does your catchphrase have to do with the post you quoted?