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What to do?
Keep it as it is 65%  65%  [ 22 ]
Make it forbidden 35%  35%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 34
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 Post subject: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 9 May 2015, 23:49 
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Kuski
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There has occasionally been heated discussions about certain behavior in flagtag battles; some players idling (staying still) in central easy transit places of a flagtag level (i.e. start or other places which players go through a hundred times during the battle), resulting in getting the flag without any effort and losing it pretty much instantly to someone else than who he took it from.

Some people who are doing this claim it's a legitimate strategy, while some oppose it saying it's ruining the battle experience.

However, a lot of people do agree that "camping" in a place where it's hard to get to is acceptable (though might also be considered "lame" by some). I think it's a pretty fair assumption to make that while this hard place camping is a strategy that could win the battle, the same can't be said about camping in an easy-to-access spot.

There's also the troublesome aspect that you can't see the flag when spying with F1+Enter. I think wanting to spy the battle is understandable. In some flagtag levels there are remote places which wouldn't interfere with the playing of others, while in some levels that's just not an option. Making a dedicated spy spot wouldn't really solve the problem either because the flag would get stuck there rather easily.

Kopaka said it well in an discussion we had: "like starting internal level unedited is clearly not the purpose of battles, but massive multiplayer flag tag is a new invention with EOL, so don't really have same traditions to go back on". I made this topic to get a clear view on the scene's stance on this thing. Right now it's not forbidden, therefore no actions can really be done except asking the player not to do it. However, with this topic, we might reach a formal stance on the subject. While it's fine to just vote on the poll, a post with some reasoning for your opinion would be nice.

EDIT: Just to clarify, this poll is about the point 2 analcactus makes in his post.


Last edited by roope on 10 May 2015, 00:43, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 9 May 2015, 23:57 
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Kuski

Joined: 15 Jun 2003, 14:13
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it is of course a legitimate strategy, one that the level designer needs to take into account. that's partly what makes a good flag tag level. it can be a measure of a good player if one can get to a place where others can't. whether he acquires the flag by means of randomity, that's just him playing the odds.

i'm all for idling, because there is no single style to any level, any battle type. you're given the rules, you shall work with them.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 10 May 2015, 00:03 
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Kuski
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veezay wrote:
it is of course a legitimate strategy, one that the level designer needs to take into account. that's partly what makes a good flag tag level. it can be a measure of a good player if one can get to a place where others can't. whether he acquires the flag by means of randomity, that's just him playing the odds.

Not sure if you understood it wrong, but this topic/poll isn't about the act of getting to a hard place and getting the flag randomly (I agree with what you said there), but about the act of idling in an extremely common place like an easy loop right next to the start; places which are practically unavoidable in normal play.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 10 May 2015, 00:27 
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Kuski
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Personally, I find it irritating and not acceptable. I find an intense battle with a lot of cool skilled steals a lot more fun (and entertaining as an spectator), and the idle players often "cockblock" these steals. Going with the flow of a level and making dynamic maneuvers are what makes flagtags so enjoyable for me, and if there's a couple of guys idling in some central places forcing me to avoid them every single time I'm anywhere near, it ruins the fun. And I think flagtags are a lot more "fun-based" than most battle types.

And I emphasize that I don't think camping in a really hard place is wrong. I do it myself occasionally and I enjoy hunting the flag from those places. It needs some skill. Dropping to a hang below the start doesn't.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 10 May 2015, 00:29 
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My IMO point as follows:

1. Camping in hard, tricky-to-get places. You get to the super hard place, using your classy riding and style-finding skills, then get flag by RNG (when a flag holder dies), then you hold it while others try to reach your place (and often they fail for a while). IMO it is a good legitimate strategy. Examples: TTechnik :mrhat:

2. Staying in common places. You stay in the "middle" (I mean the place that is crossed by common routes) of the level and when the flag holder goes through you, it loses flag (it's clear that to stop and wait till the flag reattaches is very unfun) and you hold it till anyone reaches you. It ruins pure flag tag experience for almost all participants. It is bad mannered strategy that should be declared illegal. Examples: Chris :cry:

It's really easy to decide whether the place is (1) or (2) - it's enough to briefly play a level for a few seconds, figuratively.

Not the very topic of this thread but it's still related to flagtag - there are common situations where flag is stuck at the start and some kuski (including me in the past, frankly, sorrik) start to perform ultrafast rejoining level and thus, as I understand, flag reattaches. Please don't do so!


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 10 May 2015, 00:35 
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Kuski
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roope wrote:
However, a lot of people do agree that "camping" in a place where it's hard to get to is acceptable (though might also be considered "lame" by some). I think it's a pretty fair assumption to make that while this hard place camping is a strategy that could win the battle, the same can't be said about camping in an easy-to-access spot.
Some levels are designed intentionally with these hard to reach places, and camping there is half the point. There's also a handful players who like that, and that's fine. Then there's the typical flowy arenas where every spot is fairly quickly accessible. A smaller handful of players support the "strategy" of finding a random spot and sitting there doing nothing. An example from a couple of hours ago: http://i.imgur.com/1YvPsYA.png - Juka and Chris spent the battle standing at the marked spots. It's well hard enough to make a FT level with good mobility, where players (foremost flagcarrier) has as many movement options as possible while maintaining speed. Camping like this quite simply blocks a part of the level from flowy, good gameplay. You can go through there, but you'll have to touch the camper twice, and then you've lost all speed everyone has caught up already. And what's the reward of this "legitimate strategy"? I don't see it.

The problem with devising a rule against it is differentiating between camping at a hard spot and camping to block gameplay. Imaginably some cases are not clear (not that I remember any). But we're a small community, so I think it ought to be forbidden and up to moderators' consideration. It would be best to have flagtag-specific bans, but I guess that's not currently possible.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 10 May 2015, 01:21 
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That's just one battle. Usually I just camp and when someone bump into me I just drive away. It's just my style of playing. There no way I will ever beat someone like Lukazz or Adi. I actually have worse results while playing actively than passively. Beside that do whatever you want. If you change rules I will see what can I do or I will just stop playing fts. I wasn't the only one who did that anyway. I'm not talking about this battle. There are always people either camping in impsy spots or anywhere hoping to achieve something.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 10 May 2015, 01:37 
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I agree that afking in central spots should be illegal. I disagree camping in the start should be illegal though. That way levelmakers have incentive to make start-spots afk-able. Also I don't think it matters too much, anyone can come to start instantly so when you have the flag you should stay away from there anyway.

Of course the best way to solve this would be to make FT-spying work properly, then you don't need to allow afking in start.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 10 May 2015, 01:43 
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Kuski

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according to extensive #across conversations, i don't seem to get the point what roope meant, so discard at will what i said.

hö.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 10 May 2015, 02:20 
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Kuski
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These lines are probably relevant:

[03:25:48] <Dani_TAH> if you just afk it's like you are not a player any more, you are a new element in lev blocking gameflow
[03:26:46] <lousk> it's alright to be in the level and blocking routes, but the veri essence of flagtag is interactivity, and you're not reacting to anything, you're just blocking that one spot forever
Chris wrote:
That's just one battle. Usually I just camp and when someone bump into me I just drive away.
I don't see a problem with that strategy.
Chris wrote:
It's just my style of playing. There no way I will ever beat someone like Lukazz or Adi. I actually have worse results while playing actively than passively.
Is placing 11th instead of 12th really more important than having a fun battle? Even when it's annoying others and breaking flow? If you don't care enough to even want to learn (by playing obv), why do you enter the battle at all?

Veri tired of this discussion for tonight, hopefully someone has some useful input, and hopefully our point is understood.

Anyway, I'll look into recording video of battles. Maybe the issue doesn't make sense unless you see it.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 10 May 2015, 03:10 
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seems like super minor problem to me.. Campers are usually as easily/hardly avoidable as people, who drive around lev. You just have to watch for everyone, that's it. It might suck sometimes to bump into a camper, but as long it is avoidable, it seems fine to me.

Lousku wrote:
But we're a small community, so I think it ought to be forbidden and up to moderators' consideration. It would be best to have flagtag-specific bans, but I guess that's not currently possible.

I think quite the opposite. ESPECIALLY coz we are small comunity, we should not ruin the fun for people, who place 11th and 12th and such.

Banning for unorthodox strategy seems so harsh to me O.o


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 10 May 2015, 03:50 
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Bludek wrote:
seems like super minor problem to me..
That might be because you've only played 15 flagtag balles. It happens very commonly.
Quote:
Campers are usually as easily/hardly avoidable as people, who drive around lev.
As we've explained, it's already hard enough to include lots of movement options in flagtag levels. For me, the fun in flagtags is interactivity and constant change. Players move around and you have to adapt your routes quickly. Camping, on the other hand, simply removes a part of the level from flowy gameplay. It removes from an already limited resource of movement options. Less interaction, more orgy.
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we should not ruin the fun for people, who place 11th and 12th and such.
Fun? Standing still is fun? All Chris is talking about is getting a better result.
Quote:
Banning for unorthodox strategy seems so harsh to me O.o
Yeah, I would be more in favor of kicking from battle, a very short ban, or a ban from only flagtag battles. Or simply a written rule to refer to. These campers are otherwise usually nice mans.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 10 May 2015, 11:03 
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Lousku wrote:
Is placing 11th instead of 12th really more important than having a fun battle? Even when it's annoying others and breaking flow? If you don't care enough to even want to learn (by playing obv), why do you enter the battle at all?

I found good strategy and it often placed me much higher than 11th or 12th. Yes people are annoyed when I take the flag, but that's the whole point of flag tag: stealing flag.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 12 May 2015, 16:38 
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what about just texting in chat if someone is afking in norm paths, and if nothing is done throu battle, A formal ban warning. but camp strategy is legit as long as its not obvious idling under start or something like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 12 May 2015, 21:38 
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I think it's fucking hilarious so of course it's OK. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 13 May 2015, 01:15 
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Kuski
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Chris wrote:
Yes people are annoyed when I take the flag, but that's the whole point of flag tag: stealing flag.
And the whole point of life is to keep your genes going, so make as many children as you can!

Blah. This problem just seems so clear from my perspective. You're standing on the dancefloor just because there's a counter and you can't manage to get those precious points by actually participating. You're simply substracting from the moments that make the ballemode fun, just to get a marginally higher value in stats. I know, the fun is rare, because most levels are pretty bad and often there's too many players etc etc, but when the level somewhat works and we're trying to have a nice time, you still park your mopo and shit on our party. How nice. Looks like it'll remain technically allowed, but that doesn't make you any less of a dick.

Anyway, congrats on your stats.

The option of private balles would fix most problems with flagtag. :F


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 14 May 2015, 03:27 
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Kuski
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roope wrote:
Some people who are doing this claim it's a legitimate strategy, while some oppose it saying it's ruining the battle experience.


Im curious who claimed that camping in some easy spot is a legitimate strategy. Because you will never win this way.... basically all you are doing by hanging out in an easy spot is being a dick and gaining the flag for .2 seconds and then like you said losing it to someone new. so yeah it sucks for people actually playing.

camping at a tough spot is fine though and a legitimate strategy imo.

p.s. who is battling flagtags anyways? i never see any anymore :(


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 14 May 2015, 08:55 
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Kuski
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gimp wrote:
Im curious who claimed that camping in some easy spot is a legitimate strategy. Because you will never win this way...

Well, not everyone plays to get the first place. People like me or Chris know that they have no chance to beat all these godly players. We are happy just to get the flag and drive around with it a little. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 14 May 2015, 12:31 
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Kuski
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kuchitsu wrote:
gimp wrote:
Im curious who claimed that camping in some easy spot is a legitimate strategy. Because you will never win this way...

Well, not everyone plays to get the first place. People like me or Chris know that they have no chance to beat all these godly players. We are happy just to get the flag and drive around with it a little. :)

I found flag tag the easiest type of battle in terms of winning against pros. Provided you are at least trying.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 14 May 2015, 21:41 
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Kuski
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The idling thingy partly describes why I never really ever played flagtags, the other cancer in them being being when people are stuck in one spot, no one enjoying the shit and just going for those tenths.

So ye, why not have fun instead of not having fun while making others' fun less fun.

:blushes:


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 14 May 2015, 23:15 
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kuchitsu wrote:
gimp wrote:
Im curious who claimed that camping in some easy spot is a legitimate strategy. Because you will never win this way...

Well, not everyone plays to get the first place. People like me or Chris know that they have no chance to beat all these godly players. We are happy just to get the flag and drive around with it a little. :)


But that's the things.... Camping in a common loopor such won't let you drive around with it for awhile. Also in the longer scheme of things shouldn't you always play to win? Otherwise you will never get better


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 19 May 2015, 23:09 
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You can't ban people for their style of playing, even if it's stupid. How would you even phrase a rule like that? "You must not stay in one place that is easily accessible for too long."? Who's to judge which place is easily accessible? Who's to judge what area/radius of an area is considered one place? Who's to judge what too long is? And who's going to provide clear and definite evidence that the rule was broken? The main problem is that there's often too many players, which makes everything random. Just set a limit on the maximum number of people who can participate, then it could even be fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 20 May 2015, 05:48 
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Yes, Madness, this is madness.

Or we just kick Chris because of reasons. It worked somewhere else, I can't see why it wouldn't work here.
#ididntpayforthis #cruelmods #hi #plsthxgzbb #votebludekforpresident2017


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 20 May 2015, 09:56 
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Answer to poll question: Nothing.
I agree with Madness on that part where he is right, I hate to say it but.. EVERYWHERE =D
#zweg #yoolof #thisismadness


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 20 May 2015, 16:31 
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Kuski
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Madness wrote:
You can't ban people for their style of playing, even if it's stupid. How would you even phrase a rule like that? "You must not stay in one place that is easily accessible for too long."? Who's to judge which place is easily accessible? Who's to judge what area/radius of an area is considered one place? Who's to judge what too long is? And who's going to provide clear and definite evidence that the rule was broken?
Maybe I would also get technical like this if I didn't actually play flagtags (like you). See, it's more like "don't spam 60min tiny flattrack höyläs", as it blocks more interesting gameplay for others. Moderators can very well stop sach balles, or remove startballe rights for a while if someone does this, and you're not saying: "You can't ban people for their style of levmaking, even if it's stupid. How would you even phrase a rule like that?" etc. In practice these cases are very clear, and frankly it most often seems like these players don't have the skills to actually participate and have a nice balle with others, so they do what they can to hinder the others' gameplay out of spite.
Madness wrote:
The main problem is that there's often too many players, which makes everything random. Just set a limit on the maximum number of people who can participate, then it could even be fun.
That's obviously aside the point. You would still have campers blocking routes in a limited balle.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 20 May 2015, 20:10 
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I just thought of limited battle with like max 5 players on each group, then winners play final, second players plays together and so on. And group sizes could get choosen by levmaker.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2015, 07:26 
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I find camping in hard-to-reach spots pretty lame too. If everyone would be driving to one of those spots each there would be no battle. So basically there is this one guy who drives to some remote polygon, wait for others to battle for the flag until the flag holder dies and that camper might get the flag by luck. Where's the fun in that? Winning on others dirty work. Camping in easy-to-reach spots just as lame. The whole flagtag mode is flawed, some of it can be compensated with optimal level design though.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 21 Jul 2015, 08:36 
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Flagtag mode itself is totally oke, but was initially designed for two players, not 30.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 01:41 
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The shitty thing here is that we needed a discussion about a rule to begin with. You would think this community is small and friendly enough that we could play fun flagtag without problem, but then some mans get their enjoyment from ruining it for others.

The best hope of consistently nice flagtag is having private balles through some imaginary means, and excluding mans who otherwise act nice but decide to be assholes when it comes to flagtag.

Flagtag has big potential and there have been incredibly fun balles in the past, but our tiny community is somehow too public for it, and that's kinda frustrating.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 02:40 
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Ok, now that everyone's read Lousku's post once, read it again. The post was good and contained a really good message which pretty much sums up what I think about the topic.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 07:13 
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I love flagtags, please make more of them people :)


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 07:20 
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Madness wrote:
You can't ban people for their style of playing, even if it's stupid. How would you even phrase a rule like that? "You must not stay in one place that is easily accessible for too long."? Who's to judge which place is easily accessible? Who's to judge what area/radius of an area is considered one place?


Also I like what madness said here, this can't really be an issue cause there is no way to monitor it or make a rule for it. Let's just be happy with what we have.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 10:14 
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FinMan wrote:
The post was good and contained a really good message which pretty much sums up what I think about the topic.

Dunno. "You guys should play the way that I find fun" is a good message?


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 10:47 
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Relevant bit from Showing styles publicly during a contest tropic:
kuchitsu wrote:
Not that it matters in my case since I'm probably too nab to show something that good players will find interesting, but I'll share my story anyway. I did this in World Cup and a bit in Mie Cup, and to be honest... I think I kind of did it to deliberately be an asshole. I'm a manchild, when I see a system that is so easily exploitable and I know that I won't be punished, for me it can be hard to resist the craving to do something "funny". This is also why I always defend flagtag abusers I guess: for me it's fun to see systems getting abused. Yeah, I'm not really nice... :\
Thanks for posting that publicly. No need to really argue anything now.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 11:09 
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Lousku is probably referring to camping in hard-to-reach spots now (which I did yesterday). I don't see anything wrong with this at all. It's the same as if you were complaining about Zero using hard styles in regular battles that no one else can do and so it's not fun for others.

Getting somewhere distant/inaccessible and preventing people from stealing your flag is the point of a flagtag battle, isn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 11:13 
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kuchitsu wrote:
FinMan wrote:
The post was good and contained a really good message which pretty much sums up what I think about the topic.

Dunno. "You guys should play the way that I find fun" is a good message?


Maybe more like he wants to only play with people that plays the same way he does. I think a good way to consider which behaviour is healthy is consider what would happen if everyone did the same. If everyone chased the flag there would be a battle going, though some might get annoyed cus they never get it. If everyone idled there would simply be no battle, no fun for anyone.

But if we discard that, as mentioned in first post it's essentially a new mode invented in EOL, so we need to figure out how it's best played and adapt rules accordingly. Yes the mode is flawed but we can't change that right now. There's clearly something that some people find an issue, and still is since this thread is getting bumped. Question is, is it a big issue. If we look only at the vote, the majority is saying keep it as it is. But frankly I don't recognize that result. Firstly there's only 28 votes, which is hardly representative of the EOL population. Secondly I'm yet to see a single good argument from the keep it as it is side, while I've seen plenty from the other side.

Eventhough the keep it as is it side is in the majority in the vote, in most cases idlers are in the minority in the actual battles. With them there the majority is not having fun, but if we were to remove the idlers the majority could have fun. Sure we might ruin the fun that some people have idling, but if one person's fun is at the expense of many it's no good. Empathy, look it up.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 11:20 
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Madness wrote:
Lousku is probably referring to camping in hard-to-reach spots now (which I did yesterday).
No I'm not. Those are a different type of flagtag than what's being talked about here.
Kopaka wrote:
If we look only at the vote, the majority is saying keep it as it is. But frankly I don't recognize that result. Firstly there's only 28 votes, which is hardly representative of the EOL population.
Also, most people don't care about flagtag enough to support the change, and some dislike it enough to want to see it ruined, for some reason. But it's bango to call a poll and say it's invalid when the result is not preferable.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 11:52 
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Kopaka wrote:
Secondly I'm yet to see a single good argument from the keep it as it is side, while I've seen plenty from the other side.

Eventhough the keep it as is it side is in the majority in the vote, in most cases idlers are in the minority in the actual battles. With them there the majority is not having fun, but if we were to remove the idlers the majority could have fun. Sure we might ruin the fun that some people have idling, but if one person's fun is at the expense of many it's no good. Empathy, look it up.

Madness wrote:
You can't ban people for their style of playing, even if it's stupid. How would you even phrase a rule like that? "You must not stay in one place that is easily accessible for too long."? Who's to judge which place is easily accessible? Who's to judge what area/radius of an area is considered one place? Who's to judge what too long is? And who's going to provide clear and definite evidence that the rule was broken? The main problem is that there's often too many players, which makes everything random. Just set a limit on the maximum number of people who can participate, then it could even be fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 12:03 
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Kuski
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Kopaka wrote:

I'm yet to see a single good argument from the keep it as it is side, while I've seen plenty from the other side.



the argument is that any new rule would suck.

you can't make a rule that says "no idling in a part of flagtag that is too easy a spot for x amount of time", its too vague and subjective. in a battle type that only requires you to chase people around and do as you please, less rules is better. look at the occasional idler as an obstacle.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 12:14 
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Indeed, it's a lost cause. Just sucks that it's a problem to begin with.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 12:34 
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Kuski
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gimp: any new rule would be just as vague and vulnerable to anything as the current chat rules, current remix rules etc etc and therefore would not be forced without a verbal warning.

I also don't mind people camping in a super hard spot that much, it's a really viable, high risk-high reward strategy which doesn't run the fun for the others. It also is really boring if you decide to do this and you reach your spot easily, just like the on-topic camping. If the guy camping gets the flag, you've got a challenge to reach his spot, if he doesn't you just play your battle and enjoy!! (except if someone camps at a really important spot) An exception to the rule is if the level has a 15 minute cruise part towards the Hell's backdoor and someone drives there, leaving others no chance.

kuchitsu wrote:
FinMan wrote:
The post was good and contained a really good message which pretty much sums up what I think about the topic.

Dunno. "You guys should play the way that I find fun" is a good message?

It's not a good message if you decide to see the post just like that. (instead of actually seeing the actual point of the post) But "you shouldn't be a complete bag of dicks about this" instead could do wonders in this case. What I would like to look for in a flag tag is to find a way that is healthy and fun for the majority, which camping in a major area shits on. More people camping (in key parts of the level) results in less people being able to enjoy the battle, which really quickly reaches zero.

Also, camping in one spot isn't really playing the battle anyway and I think we really should encourage playing the game in the community.

And no, don't say you actually have FUN camping. No, you don't, you have fun spying the guy with the flag or so and probably giggle whenever you ruin their fun. I find that kinda sad.

Also p.s.
gimp wrote:
also i feel like kutchitsu always makes logical arguments
kuchitsu wrote:
I think it's fucking hilarious so of course it's OK. :D

A nice, logical argument right there.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 13:41 
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Kuski
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I'm not FT fan in the first place, but I think it's a nice mode in itself and can appreciate how it could be fun. But if this is an issue then even less chance I'd join and play. It seems really childish and dumb to play in this way. Yes for sure there's no way to make a rule about this because it's so subjective and hard to enforce, lots of grey areas etc.. It's just sad how with such a small community some people still find ways to ruin the fun for other people "just because". There's such a big ratio of what I'd say is leechers in the scene, and people who contribute and try to help, it's retarded how there's always so much trouble with everything in EOL. Rebel rule breakers, fuck conformity!!!!111 etc, not putting any effort into anything and just being retarded salty manchild and unable to let other people enjoy their thing. Maybe I'm really way off the mark here and missing something about this, but it's really hard to fathom how there's even some argument about this thing in the first place and people being for it, like... wat?!


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 5 Jun 2016, 14:22 
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After reading skint0r's post I feel like the whole Elma community is full of rebels, leechers, bullies, thugs, looters, sadists, serial killers and rapists. I am not sure if I will ever feel safe playing EOL again when it gets dark.


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 6 Jun 2016, 04:48 
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Kuski
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Finman the rules about remixes are actually very specific and clear, nothing vague about them. Don't know too much about the chat rules, but aren't they quite firm and specific about not speaking in other languages?

Also why did you quote from a different topic what I said about kutchitsu? Like "oh good job, you got me finman!" because of a random opinion I stated about how I enjoy his usual rhetoric. Right now we are talking about Flagtag battles.

I have another question, how often does this problem even happen? I mean apparently it's an issue to somebody since this poll was created, but I don't ever remember seeing anyone complain about this even once in ft battles, or ever have I thought, "that damn camper!"


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 Post subject: Re: Flagtag idling
PostPosted: 6 Jun 2016, 06:28 
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Kuski
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It happened a lot around the time this topic was created, almost in every flagtag battle. After this discussion the amount of flagtags has decreased drastically, though that might just be coincidental.

The rules - or the enforcement of the rules - really are quite flexible/vague. The rules say: don't speak other languages than English except very briefly. What is briefly then? One line, a few lines, 10 lines? Same with remixes. The rules say: remix levs should change the gameplay of the original level noticeably. What is noticeably then? Especially in a small community like ours, it's impossible to have a clear line in these things, just like it would be in making a rule about flagtag camping. It's hard to define anything exact, but players do know when it's lame as fuck and disruptive enough.

I would compare this behavior to parking your sideways on the track in a car race. "Who says you have to move forward in a race? Being in a way of others is a legit strategy since it stops others from going anywhere". It's nonsense. From the chatting on EOL when these things happened and from the following discussions it's pretty clear to me that people doing this were really just messing with the real players and flagtag fans and doing it to annoy, especially since that's the kind of people I know them to be.


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