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Do you use Brake alias?
yes 17%  17%  [ 6 ]
no 71%  71%  [ 25 ]
Brake alias? 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
stfu nab 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Total votes : 35
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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 03:00 
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Kuski
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(somewhere I read a discussion about this but cant find it anywhere so ez start new topic)

Ive been thinking about Brake alias quite a lot lately. I've never used it, but I am sure many people and almost all pros do.
To me it seems that some tricks like brutal, bounce and even uphill would be much more precise if you wouldn't have to move finger from gas to brake and back. It makes perfect sense, too as it is similar to the technique ppl use for irl car drifting.

Everyone who uses Brake alias regularly is propably thinking now: "wtf is he talking about? Impsy without!!". I imagine that playing without Brake alias (if you are used to it) must feel similar to playing without alo (= total mess).

So today for the first time since I started elma I set Brake alias key (kinda works with my playing layout). It's INSANE what you can do with it!! Nekits uphill stuff suddenly seems a lot less impsy. Zeros micro adjustments not so unreal anymore!!
The only problem is that I can't reprogram my fingers so easily. I have to put a lot of concentration on actually using the button, so I can't focus on the run and always mess it up. Maybe it's not even good to use it all the time...

Anyone else having this problem? How long did it take until Brake alias was just another tool you could use without thinking? Anyone gave up on trying to implement it? Also, do you always use Brake alias or only for special tricks and stuff?

I think Bjenn said somewhere that he never uses Brake alias, please confirm.

- insguy (nab)

edit: OK I was pretty nab here, obviously no need for Brake alias if you set brake key to someplace so you can use another finger than the one you use for gas. Discussion shifted that way, therefore topic name change.

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Last edited by insane guy on 11 Mar 2016, 14:33, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 03:24 
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Cant vote but "stfu nab" Nah just kidding.

I had to use brake alias for two internals when going for 37tt: Islands and cant remember the other one. But as i play with arrows, i gas with middle finger and when i have to brake rapidly, i dont have to change any finger, just need to press brake with thumb. Hand looks weird in this case but generally i dont have problems.

Im intersted too if someone uses it a lot and if it make changes when doing rapid tricks

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 03:45 
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Never used brake alias and never will.

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 06:42 
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Only use it incidentally when press up and down.

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 08:46 
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Zero wrote:
Never used brake alias and never will.

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 09:15 
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i use thumb for brake also like sla when need to alternate brake/gas rapidly etc. i didnt even realize i was doing it until little while ago when people talked about this topic in eol

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 10:10 
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Yay, now I can sleep and not feel like a noob for not using brake alias because Zero said it's OK!


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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 11:00 
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I have tried to learn to use break alias for some years already, but I just can't learn it. I have tried several different keys for left and right hand, but it just seems to be too confusing and I end up pressing wrong buttons all the time. Sometimes I can use it in simple situations, but fully replacing braking with alias is just impossible for me. I guess I would need to really practice it for hours and weeks consecutively rather than just trying to play a few battles like that every once in a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 11:14 
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Thanks for your feedback so far. vj thats exactly what I was talking about.
So it seems I was wrong and also accused Zero of being so good "just" because of Brake alias. Sorry about that.

I would now like to know if people use Sla's style which works pretty much in the same way Brake alias would (use other than gas finger for brake).

Also: So the truth has been revealed, I just suck :)

PS: Dunno whats wrong with poll :(

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 11:15 
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Now I know why I'm noob... :cry2: Ever since I installed belma I setup brake alias and always used it since then.

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 11:32 
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I never learned to use brake alias, so I switched brake to left hand. At that time I was surprised that I found no one to recommend this solution. It took maybe one week to learn to play again...really frustrating but definitely worth it, because it's so simple to tap brake whenever you want. Ofc could do that all with alias brake but it's probably too confusing. I don't honestly understand how ppl can effectively use normal brake with gas finger but I guess ppl have developed many kind of techniques for that. At least roope has very elastic fingers.

Maybe Zero could be even better with other keys? :lol: Anyway talli switched brake to left hand in 2009 or 2010.

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 12:24 
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Two keys for one action? Silly. Real pros have no problem pressing any set of arrow keys simultaneously.

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 12:39 
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I've seen someone use two hands on arrow keys, so they have a dedicated finger for brake. Personally I don't use break alias, but I think sometimes I'll use left arrow key finger on brake somewhat unconsciously so I can keep a finger on throttle.

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 12:47 
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Seems totally unnecessary to hev 2 buttons for brake. Like adi said, it just takes much longer to learn it if you only use the new button occasionally, so might as well forget the down arrow compleetly. I hev my brake on left ctrl.

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Last edited by Lousku on 11 Mar 2016, 12:56, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 12:55 
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Using arrow keys, no alias.
I don't have to move the finger to, you do that insguy?

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 12:56 
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Nah insguy, you didn't accuse me of anything :p My quote wasn't meant to be rage-y.. :D
I just don't see the reason to use brake alias. As simple as that. Using the arrow keys has never been a problem. Brake tapping in tight pipes is a good example. If using all arrows would be bad it would become a problem in those but so far it has worked out just well)

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 13:09 
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Zero, do you use the thumb, or press brake with the first joint of the finger, or actually move the finger?

When I joined belma, I didn't hev alo key for some months, because with my keyboard and mongo fingers I was able to just press both volts at once with no problem. I was even able to do some beisik uphilling like teh. But obv I improved when I actually set an alo key, so I had probably been avoiding it or it at least took some milliseconds of unnecessary processing or... something. Same thing happened when I switched my brake key to left hand. Once I was used to it, it was much much easier to control.

So I hope it's nat condescending but if you're using 1 finger for 2 buttons, I really think you should try something else. The learning period is ultimately really short: a week at max (if you're retarded like my) and then you see results.

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 Post subject: Re: Using Brake alias
PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 14:35 
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I'm amazed that people use all arrows. For me as you generally need only 6 button to play elma, it's most comfortable to use 3 fingers from each hand. My fingers just comfortably lay on buttons and I press buttons when needed. No need to move, twist fingers or use thumb.

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 15:05 
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here is a video analysis of me playing BBLP09 by Sla: https://www.dropbox.com/s/202721utjya1t ... b.mp4?dl=0

In this video it can be clearly seen that I lose quite a lot of time by moving finger between gas and brake. Also looks mango and unhealthy. Damn, it's been 15 years :)

I will try to remove brake from down arrow (to force me quit using it) and put to left hand ring finger.

(edit: sorry for annoying smartphone auto focus, was too lazy to set up good camera)

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 15:28 
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I only use right hand middle finger for gas+brake on the arrows, but it's not necessary to actually move the finger from gas to brake. Just lower the finger slightly and it hits brake without ever getting away from gas, so no time is lost there. Only when I just want brake without gas some time may be lost but I don't see any reason to learn to use some alias for this minuscule time loss.

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 16:03 
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Yeps, seems SveinR uses the same style I do. Middle finger in both gas and brake (up and down arrow), and do joint movement for diff moves instead of actually lifting the finger like insguy.

The only reason I've sometimes considered a brake alias is for starts where you have to push with brake immediately, and with down arrow you sometimes accidentally navigate the menu (and this sometimes leads to "playing replays", even for long periods of time before noticing it's a replay :D)


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 17:18 
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I use alias for very specific places in internals only for breaktaps, otherwise no.


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 17:44 
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You never need to press more than three arrows simultaneously, so why would you press brake and gas with one finger? That must be painful. 8O


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 17:59 
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Madness wrote:
You never need to press more than three arrows simultaneously, so why would you press brake and gas with one finger? That must be painful. 8O

Ehhh, no? Not more painful than simply resting your finger on the table. It is not the fingertip that's pressing both keys at once, but the entire finger (well, the first 3-4 cm of it). Just place your finger on the up arrow, and lower the finger slightly to also hit the down arrow. When i say "lower the finger" I mean lower in the y-direction, not lower down the keyboard.

.. I sense a video would explain it better :P

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 19:00 
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insane guy wrote:
Anyone else having this problem? How long did it take until Brake alias was just another tool you could use without thinking? Anyone gave up on trying to implement it? Also, do you always use Brake alias or only for special tricks and stuff?

I had super many problems learning to use brake alias, what I did was take a level that I knew and then forced myself to use brake alias in some spot, eventually it came naturally in that level and over time naturally in all levels.
I would say it took me a year to use it like any other tool without thinking. I don't always brake alias, only when I also gas at the same time. For example in int44 start I use brake alias for first 3 brakes and normal brake with gas release for fourth brake.
int44 start without brake alias feels impossible because of this. 3 brakes without gas release and one with in the first few seconds. But ofc it is possible just learn to press brake without moving finger osv.
insane guy wrote:
here is a video analysis of me playing BBLP09 by Sla: https://www.dropbox.com/s/202721utjya1t ... b.mp4?dl=0

This is how I used to brake before I switched to brake alias, and how I do when I brake without brake alias now.


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 20:55 
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SveinR wrote:
Madness wrote:
You never need to press more than three arrows simultaneously, so why would you press brake and gas with one finger? That must be painful. 8O

Ehhh, no? Not more painful than simply resting your finger on the table. It is not the fingertip that's pressing both keys at once, but the entire finger (well, the first 3-4 cm of it). Just place your finger on the up arrow, and lower the finger slightly to also hit the down arrow. When i say "lower the finger" I mean lower in the y-direction, not lower down the keyboard.

.. I sense a video would explain it better :P

Well, I've just tried it and it doesn't seem too comfortable. It strains your middle finger knuckle a little bit. Also, it probably makes your reaction time slower as I suppose your middle finger is not completely stretched out and you need to make more effort to press the down arrow (if you don't believe me, try to hold the End button with your fingertip and press the down arrow with the lower part of the same finger).

Here's how I do it most of the time (only the thumb is idle): http://kopasite.net/up/46sb8477kb88vyx/Mad.png


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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 21:07 
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Madness wrote:
Also, it probably makes your reaction time slower as I suppose your middle finger is not completely stretched out and you need to make more effort to press the down arrow

Actually, my middle finger is completely stretched out, so are all my other fingers :P

I have my keyboard placed right at the edge of the table, which allows this solution to be very comfortable for me.

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PostPosted: 11 Mar 2016, 22:24 
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roope wrote:
Yeps, seems SveinR uses the same style I do. Middle finger in both gas and brake (up and down arrow), and do joint movement for diff moves instead of actually lifting the finger like insguy.

Same.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 00:11 
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I don't use brake alias either. However, instead of middle finger on both gas and brake, like many people seem to have, I use index finger for both brake (Ö) and left volt (L). Middle finger is on gas (P), ring finger on right volt (Ä), and pinky on enter.

My keys are very soft and shallow and close to each other, so my index finger rests very comfortably in the middle of brake and left, and pressing both simultaneously is simple. Then if I need to press only left or brake, I just nudge my finger a bit left or right without really lifting it at all. It all comes so naturally that I had to consciously look at my fingers to see how I'm actually doing it.

This reminds me of insguy filming some close-up shots of people's keyboard action in FEM. I press the keys so gently that he was having a hard time getting any clicking sounds on tape... Also adi, who was sitting right next to me, has a very calm and composed way of playing. It's a nice contrast, when most other people have a much less minimalistic style of playing and pressing the buttons, and you can hear all of them around the room.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 01:19 
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Out of curiosity, where is that "Ä" key located? It doesn't exist on rus-eng keyboards.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 01:25 
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edit: maybe I am wrong with what i wrote ))))
edit2: Oh, I was right about what i wrote: Just check, kuchi, where is "P" and "l" and those keys, that u don't have on your keyboard are exactly there, where you would expect them - like where is "s" and "d" compared to "w" and "a". Or juste google "keyboard finnish layout", as i did :)))
btw I did editing, coz for a sec I thought Mark could possibly have fingers in weird possitions and that it was not as obvious :)
edit3: why did I even bother answering :)


Last edited by Bludek on 12 Mar 2016, 01:33, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 01:29 
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kuchitsu wrote:
Out of curiosity, where is that "Ä" key located? It doesn't exist on rus-eng keyboards.

Here's the Finnish layout: http://ascii-table.com/img/keyboard-153.png

edit: So yeah, just a conventional up down left right formation.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 08:48 
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I use wasd(and e for alo volt), shift and space bar. Sometimes I use the S key for braking, but usually it's the space bar that I push down with my palm. So I guess you could say I'm using alo brake. For turning, I use the shift key with my left hand.


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PostPosted: 12 Mar 2016, 19:26 
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I use the same finger for gas and brake like normal game. Only use brake alias for starts where need immediate brake + volt


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2016, 14:56 
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p: gas
l: left
ä: right
ö: alo
a: brake
s: turn

very retard settings but i'm used to it now.


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PostPosted: 13 Mar 2016, 15:47 
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always used brake + gas with same finger (up + down arrows). There hasn't been a lot of problems with it except using something else than down arrow would make brake + volt starts more comfortable. I often use two fingers for gas + brake though in tougher situations without thinking (middle finger for brake, finger number 4 for gas), two other fingers for left + right (pointing finger and pinky) and thumb for alo (ctrl).

Rest (space for turning and f1, f2, f5, f6, f9,f11 osv for stuff) with left hand.

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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2016, 17:26 
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It's hard with MacBook layout to use brake/gas with the same finger without extreme uncomfort, I have to move it slightly, maybe losing some time occationally. In those cases alias brake is just much easier and faster. Apart from that I always use it when brake is down in start, that way you avoid the annoying accidental replay.


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PostPosted: 14 Mar 2016, 23:13 
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learnt to use brake alias in 2011, its pretty useful and had no troubles learning to use it in certain places. i cant imagine using a fuckyou finger for 2 buttons at one time.
i dont use it in every situation though, im not even sure when exactly i use it. but for sure never use it alongside alo (alo=alt, brake alias=x, turn=space) and i use it only when fast gas-to-brake is required, otherwise downarrow feels better
to me, it makes some tricks easier and hopefully makes it possible to save 0,05s sometimes ;p


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PostPosted: 15 Mar 2016, 01:18 
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I've noticed a lot of good players use same finger, so maybe it doesn't matter that much. I heard toringe used to even use left+right for alo


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2016, 16:22 
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roope wrote:
Yeps, seems SveinR uses the same style I do. Middle finger in both gas and brake (up and down arrow), and do joint movement for diff moves instead of actually lifting the finger like insguy.

Same.


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PostPosted: 30 Apr 2016, 20:05 
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I started using brake alias very early after I started playing elma, but after some time I stopped using normal brake completely and now I just have normal brake in my left hand and down arrow does nothing.


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PostPosted: 5 May 2016, 03:50 
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insane guy wrote:
here is a video analysis of me playing BBLP09 by Sla: https://www.dropbox.com/s/202721utjya1t ... b.mp4?dl=0

In this video it can be clearly seen that I lose quite a lot of time by moving finger between gas and brake. Also looks mango and unhealthy. Damn, it's been 15 years :)

I will try to remove brake from down arrow (to force me quit using it) and put to left hand ring finger.

(edit: sorry for annoying smartphone auto focus, was too lazy to set up good camera)



Dunno how i missed a lot of new posts in this thread.
I saw your video insa and thats weird and slowly! Cant imagine a good run if you have to press gas and brake too fast. Did you change your way to gas/break simultaneous?

EDIT: i dont see new posts on this thread (them appears like old post. Anyone else?


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PostPosted: 6 May 2016, 22:53 
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Sla wrote:
I saw your video insa and thats weird and slowly! Cant imagine a good run if you have to press gas and brake too fast. Did you change your way to gas/break simultaneous?


Tried to set brake to left hand for a while but feels like writing with left (weak) hand. Gave up for now. Its propably not gonna happen for me :)


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PostPosted: 7 May 2016, 00:38 
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Definitely you cant play that way!

This is how i do brutals (where u have to press buttons so at exact time, fast, change fingers etc). Note that i used left hand only for pic cuz i use right one actually.
Thumb works pretty good at every moment (8

http://kopasite.net/up/ajiyol2g7pac4ke/CAM01933.jpg
http://kopasite.net/up/e3mbuwuq6uq8ef6/CAM01932.jpg

You really should try this or another style.


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PostPosted: 7 May 2016, 02:11 
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I doubt new brake button is gonna take longer to learn than however long it took you to go from left+right to an alo button.


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PostPosted: 7 May 2016, 09:00 
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I've soon had it for two months and it still isn't as natural as normal button was. Uphills and levels that require such brake-volt-gas combos are impsy.


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PostPosted: 7 May 2016, 11:26 
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Well dame! Maybe it's different for old farts who hev played since the beginning of time...


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PostPosted: 7 May 2016, 12:08 
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Location: Oslo, Norway
You're probably right, Lousku.

I probably have the most unconventional finger setting of anybody here, with alo on x (middle finger) and alias brake on z (ring finger). I use index finger for space aswell. In the beginning I used z only for brake starts, but now I use it more and more in different places in all kinds of lev. Often it's .01 more efficient, and it's also very nice for my middle finger which doesn't have to struggle so much anymore between gas and brake.


Last edited by Ruben on 8 May 2016, 00:54, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: 7 May 2016, 23:25 
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Kuski
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Joined: 6 Jan 2009, 13:08
Posts: 1995
Location: Srdcom vychodniar
Ruben wrote:
I have alo on x (ring finger) and alias brake on z (middle finger). I use index finger for space aswell.

Are you sure? Tried this and I tangled my fingers.


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PostPosted: 8 May 2016, 00:54 
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Kuski
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Joined: 31 Dec 2012, 18:07
Posts: 694
Location: Oslo, Norway
Tigro wrote:
Ruben wrote:
I have alo on x (ring finger) and alias brake on z (middle finger). I use index finger for space aswell.

Are you sure? Tried this and I tangled my fingers.


Oh yeah lol, I'm not that dexterous, ring finger and middle finger should be swapped of course.


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