Enigma Bounce
Moderator: Moporators
Enigma Bounce
This is my legit Enigma replay, and here you can comment whether or not it is a bug - why it is, and how it is. This is not the WR, but the 2nd best time in the world.
http://koti.mbnet.fi/~teamice/mango/rep ... Luther.zip
http://koti.mbnet.fi/~teamice/mango/rep ... Luther.zip
Nekit for president
It was pretty powerful BUT what I've experienced the alobounce (like that) can produce surprising behaviour. Actually it's pretty new area for me and I've played quite a bit recently with it. Especially in Bounce Back... let me try if I could find some sample:
Ok, I think this is a bit same: www.pulu.org/elma/28tcrick.rec
So, in my opinion: No, it's not bug bounce.
Ok, I think this is a bit same: www.pulu.org/elma/28tcrick.rec
So, in my opinion: No, it's not bug bounce.
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- Kuski
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This is what i said in #across
Stini's 19,16 :
[11:42] <LutherICE> Monzteman, id like your voice on lauta in teh topic then, about this :p
[11:46] <_p_> luther do you think stinis rec is bug?
[11:47] <_p_> i mean...if it is bug, is it same 'type' as yours or is it speed-enhancing? =)
[11:47] <Monzteman> YES!...from what i remember he gains more speed that normally possible
[11:48] <Monzteman> same shootout as luths
[11:48] <Monzteman> it just goes into the hill
[11:49] <_p_> wish he would publish rec (fully)
[11:49] <_p_> its not as if its secret-style lev
[11:50] <Monzteman> hes affraid that too many will complain about it
[11:50] <_p_> and speculation about legitimacy of rec is probably just as bad as actual criticism he would get.
Luthers 19,29 :
there is a wheel shootout no doubt, but im not sure it helps him.....i really wish milagros would develop that "Bounce - o - Meter" he has talked about in the past
Stini's 19,16 :
[11:42] <LutherICE> Monzteman, id like your voice on lauta in teh topic then, about this :p
[11:46] <_p_> luther do you think stinis rec is bug?
[11:47] <_p_> i mean...if it is bug, is it same 'type' as yours or is it speed-enhancing? =)
[11:47] <Monzteman> YES!...from what i remember he gains more speed that normally possible
[11:48] <Monzteman> same shootout as luths
[11:48] <Monzteman> it just goes into the hill
[11:49] <_p_> wish he would publish rec (fully)
[11:49] <_p_> its not as if its secret-style lev
[11:50] <Monzteman> hes affraid that too many will complain about it
[11:50] <_p_> and speculation about legitimacy of rec is probably just as bad as actual criticism he would get.
Luthers 19,29 :
there is a wheel shootout no doubt, but im not sure it helps him.....i really wish milagros would develop that "Bounce - o - Meter" he has talked about in the past
0lp TT : 32,44,85 /\ vz TT : 17,44,85 /\ 2fast TT 17,25,96
- Juski
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Should be change of speed of before bounce and after bounce imomilagros wrote:wiht bounce-meter there is one main problem: what to meassure
is it the pop of the wheel, some fucntion of pop and speed, some function of pop, speed and change of the speed (some acceleration or what) or what?
Total Time: 38:35,14
- Boomer
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I think it's definitely a bugbounce.
Team LOS website
<jaytea> uh milk was invented in 1966
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<teh_mila> bah, fucked up nice labpro ride cause i almost fell of the chair:)
<jaytea> uh milk was invented in 1966
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<teh_mila> bah, fucked up nice labpro ride cause i almost fell of the chair:)
i think it's definitely a bug bounce. how else could he get such a fast boost out of nowhere? simple bounces makes you jump with the appropriate speed at which you were going and this one does adds some extra speed you usually dont see in the ordinary bounces.
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Nat bug.
I guess it can be summarized to: "Is the wheel moving (rather) smoothly throughot the whole bounce?" There might be a problem with the "weird" movements of the wheel that happens sometime (like in this rec), or maybe that's just a drawing bug?milagros wrote: wiht bounce-meter there is one main problem: what to meassure
is it the pop of the wheel, some fucntion of pop and speed, some function of pop, speed and change of the speed (some acceleration or what) or what?
<Fihlvein> another case of zworqy-is-always-right closed i guess
<yoosef> zworqy doesnt suck at anything
<yoosef> zworqy doesnt suck at anything
I pretty much agree with what kestas says. Fuck technicalities, fuck a bounce-meter, fuck slowing it down and analyzing how the wheel moves. Just watch the rec, the bounce really takes you by surprise and looks like a glitch.
However, two things must be considered. Firstly, Luther is an amazing player. It's possibly that I don't think this bounce was legitimate because I simply have never had the skill to do one similar. Just because a noob plays Enigma and does a sax bounce, doesn't mean that if a pro does a faster one he should be labelled 'omg bug xiit'. And secondly, Luther has an amazing Elma tune, 1000+ fps or something crazy. As anyone who has played Elma on different PCs before will know, tune makes a huge difference to the kinds of stunts you can do. I mean, I thought Uphill Battle brutalbounce was something that I just didn't understand, and could never do, but I made it almost first try when I tried on jaytea's computer. And my PR was driven on his comp, and I won't be able to beat it until I play on his comp again. So the point I'm trying to make is that maybe on Luther's computer, these kind of bounces can be done.
But it's still a very grey area and I'd like to know how "those in the know" reached their judgment.
However, two things must be considered. Firstly, Luther is an amazing player. It's possibly that I don't think this bounce was legitimate because I simply have never had the skill to do one similar. Just because a noob plays Enigma and does a sax bounce, doesn't mean that if a pro does a faster one he should be labelled 'omg bug xiit'. And secondly, Luther has an amazing Elma tune, 1000+ fps or something crazy. As anyone who has played Elma on different PCs before will know, tune makes a huge difference to the kinds of stunts you can do. I mean, I thought Uphill Battle brutalbounce was something that I just didn't understand, and could never do, but I made it almost first try when I tried on jaytea's computer. And my PR was driven on his comp, and I won't be able to beat it until I play on his comp again. So the point I'm trying to make is that maybe on Luther's computer, these kind of bounces can be done.
But it's still a very grey area and I'd like to know how "those in the know" reached their judgment.
[OMG] | [SpEF] | Apparently my TT was once 39:26:06
It's a bug bounce and I'm sticking to it...there was greater speed coming out of the bounce than going in...it isn't a matter of if it looks buggy...it just is a bug...imho
The bug bounce is determined by the sudden movement in the screen...play it in slow-motion and you can see that the screen 'twitches irregularly' as the wheel has finished compressing...that is what determines a bug bounce for me
The bug bounce is determined by the sudden movement in the screen...play it in slow-motion and you can see that the screen 'twitches irregularly' as the wheel has finished compressing...that is what determines a bug bounce for me
Total Time: 38:35,14
very nice run luther but ya i agree with dynamo that looks like a bug bounce. I watched in slow motion and the wheel gets crazy for a second and in my opinion that's a bug bounce.
Religious Man
|| TT: 37:47:70 || EX New Wave WR + Animal Farm WR || 24 Canadian Records || TEC Bronze Medal || HHIT in the 37min club || http://elastomaster.tripod.com/ ||
|| TT: 37:47:70 || EX New Wave WR + Animal Farm WR || 24 Canadian Records || TEC Bronze Medal || HHIT in the 37min club || http://elastomaster.tripod.com/ ||
stinis is kind of easier to judge because it in no way looks like an ordinary bounce. luthers does look like an ordinary "buggish" bounce because of the wheelpop. but it surely still is questionable. but in stinis bounce he doesn't even get pressure on the hill as far as i remember, he just suddenly gets skyrocketed.
I always didnt get why Stini and others doesnt share their hoyla-recs with no new styles inside. Everybody knows the style they use and they still dont share. Hah this fakken noob doesnt share his rec just because he is scared that everybody will say "OBVIOUS BUG"??? It's even more cocky feeling to have such a wr then.
p.s. Lol if J-sim's words are true, then it is 100% bugbounce definetly.
p.s. Lol if J-sim's words are true, then it is 100% bugbounce definetly.
I mean, bounces are the result of mathematical operations, that happen on this type of programs (games) and that are perhaps not willed by the author. so I consider them a bug, consider me if I'm wrong.
and the line we are trying to draw is from legal to illegal, not acceptable ones.
you mean, bug patches, in the sense that the illegal bounces should be removed? I don't exactly know the physics of the bounce, but they were once explained (please do so), but, if Balazs would be able to remove illegal bounces from occuring, I think that milagros would be able to look "in" the replay to see if the thing happened, and decide if they are abnormal or not.... I mean, the whole line would be drawable direcly by programmers
and the line we are trying to draw is from legal to illegal, not acceptable ones.
you mean, bug patches, in the sense that the illegal bounces should be removed? I don't exactly know the physics of the bounce, but they were once explained (please do so), but, if Balazs would be able to remove illegal bounces from occuring, I think that milagros would be able to look "in" the replay to see if the thing happened, and decide if they are abnormal or not.... I mean, the whole line would be drawable direcly by programmers
I was asked to write here, but honestly I don't know what I should say.
I don't know if Luther's rec is a bug. I think I'm not the person to talk about legitimacy of bounces, if anyone is. All that I can say is that in my opinion my bounce is less buggy, but as seen in this thread, there are many opinions and no actual line between a bug and a normal bounce, so we really can do nothing but speculate. Well seriously I have nothing wise to say, BUT I made my notorious WR in Enigma 16 May 2004, so that means today is its birthday \o/. And guess what would a good way to celebrate it? Yes, that's right:
PLZ DON'T DLOAD
Enjoy.
I don't know if Luther's rec is a bug. I think I'm not the person to talk about legitimacy of bounces, if anyone is. All that I can say is that in my opinion my bounce is less buggy, but as seen in this thread, there are many opinions and no actual line between a bug and a normal bounce, so we really can do nothing but speculate. Well seriously I have nothing wise to say, BUT I made my notorious WR in Enigma 16 May 2004, so that means today is its birthday \o/. And guess what would a good way to celebrate it? Yes, that's right:
PLZ DON'T DLOAD
Enjoy.
so remove stini's wr from the list, then put luther's time there.
and at the exact same date, in two years, we be back there in this discussion and then remove luther's one and but back the 3rd best instead
neat ride, but unless we find an intelligent enough solution, all we can do is speculate... right?
and at the exact same date, in two years, we be back there in this discussion and then remove luther's one and but back the 3rd best instead
neat ride, but unless we find an intelligent enough solution, all we can do is speculate... right?
- Juski
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7 posts saying that bounce was a bug, and i cant really decide, the bounce looks to powerful compared to how little compression he got, i think it is exactly one the line to a bugbounce, what abuot we define that as a limit of bugbounces? :D
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Of course it's a bug.. Still a nice ride of course, wasn't first time he made good in the other parts ;O
I've seen some luther replays with faster starts.. Best rec without buggy bounce (that I've seen) is Tor's, imo
I've seen some luther replays with faster starts.. Best rec without buggy bounce (that I've seen) is Tor's, imo
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Funny you mention Tor's as his bounce has same power as Stini's...Crazy wrote:Of course it's a bug.. Still a nice ride of course, wasn't first time he made good in the other parts ;O
I've seen some luther replays with faster starts.. Best rec without buggy bounce (that I've seen) is Tor's, imo
Stini just bounces at lower point in hill by pressing right volt...
4th position in WC4 (DAMN YOU KARLIS!!!!) PWNED KARLIS IN WC5!!!!TT:39:2x:xx (you've got some playing to do Stini ) When it's all over the question is not who was right. The question is who's left.