FPS limiter

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is fps limiter xiit?

yes
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no
59
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Total votes: 74

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FPS limiter

Post by milagros » 28 Jul 2007, 12:21

should be the patch that limits fps to any selected value (50-1000 fps) allowed? should i do teh? (quite ez)
moderators, ez move to poll section btw..
Last edited by milagros on 28 Jul 2007, 12:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Zweq » 28 Jul 2007, 12:23

yes, then dont need stupid tricks to play shelf life ( overload cpu with plenty of programs ) ...
and you see, old comps got low fps already, say 60-150, easy to test different fps by having other processes for cpu. why make it so hard to play with setting you want, because ppl do that anyway

and depends what moposhiet thinks about it
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Post by A.K.B. » 28 Jul 2007, 13:35

not cheat because you can do it manually and it's not considered cheat.
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Post by berhabdul » 28 Jul 2007, 14:06

i think: yes

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Post by Xiphias » 28 Jul 2007, 14:22

it would only be for the better. Now we all have mango different computers with different tuning, maybe this will balance the game a bit more.
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Post by niN » 28 Jul 2007, 14:29

Xiphias wrote:it would only be for the better. Now we all have mango different computers with different tuning, maybe this will balance the game a bit more.
well said. I have no experience with this fps shit. I only play for the play, but if it could be equally available for everyone then I think it's a good idea.
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Post by John » 28 Jul 2007, 14:46

yes make it..
orka do external hd on/off and steam running/closed all the time ;D
i never pay attention to what fps i drive at tho, so i guess i have to learn the values for each lev
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Post by Zweq » 28 Jul 2007, 15:25

this would mostly be excellent for shelf life, because nowadays sach super comps impsy to do the hole :////, ez set some under 200 and do teh

tuning might be a problem though, nobody knows what kind of bugs would occur in sink, animal etc wheel holes with fps' that have never been tested before, theres danger some ez 0,1 saving fps value exists for sink start =)
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Post by milagros » 28 Jul 2007, 19:22

i might add it into next ballelma version, easier there now with stuff i already did there (stopping kuski during countdown is the same thing)
note that it will only limit the fps, e.g. if your elma runs 60hz and you set 70, it will still run 60, will work max if you have 1000 fps normally
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Post by WkE » 28 Jul 2007, 21:11

Could someone please explain what does FPS change in the way the game runs?
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Post by milagros » 28 Jul 2007, 21:35

no difference for n00bs
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Post by niN » 28 Jul 2007, 21:42

Why do you even bother trying to be funny mila? You only come out sounding mean and selfish...
Could someone please explain what does FPS change in the way the game runs?
I'm not sure myself. But I think it has something to do with how fast the bikes turns. It is possible to make it spin faster and such. But like I said, I'm not at all sure, only guessing here.
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Post by Xiphias » 28 Jul 2007, 21:46

milagros wrote:no difference for n00bs
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Post by milagros » 28 Jul 2007, 22:05

niN wrote:But I think it has something to do with how fast the bikes turns. It is possible to make it spin faster and such. But like I said, I'm not at all sure, only guessing here.
no, simply numerical solution of differential equations in elma kinda slightly change with changed step (1/fps)
all spins are same fast, it differs in brutal volts, small holes, .. simply where equations are unstable
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Post by niN » 28 Jul 2007, 22:21

okay, thank you. Now thats a proffessional answer! didn't that feel much better?
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Post by JohnPaul » 28 Jul 2007, 23:02

Not such a professional answer in fact.

Yes there's a numerical difference in every calculation since the time step is different (time is "cut" into shorter slices, so approximations are different)

But there's something else : collision detection. It's important in Shelf Life according to what Zweq said. Collision detection is done on every step without taking motion into account, so more fps means more accuracy, so less going through walls (the wheel shouldn't fit between the two polygons in Shelf Life, so WR style is a "bug").

(no need to sound complicated with differential equations, especially when Elma uses plain Euler method)

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Post by milagros » 28 Jul 2007, 23:09

JohnPaul wrote:(no need to sound complicated with differential equations, especially when Elma uses plain Euler method)
its runge-kutta, you would not get far with euler here
collision detection is part of that 'numerical solution'

edit: across used euler method and you can see how it behaves at edges. You cant get smooth run with teh if you have 30fps only
Last edited by milagros on 28 Jul 2007, 23:17, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by berhabdul » 28 Jul 2007, 23:14

niN wrote:Why do you even bother trying to be funny mila? You only come out sounding mean and selfish...
dont know why but somehow i like mila anyway

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Post by JohnPaul » 28 Jul 2007, 23:20

Sounds like you've recently read documents about physics engines :)
It's not Runge Kutta, i know it for sure, and anyway it would make little difference in such a game.
Furthermore, collision is not part of the equation solving, Elastomania directly calculates the effect of collisions : the wheel is taken out of the ground, the normal velocity is canceled, and the tangential velocity is converted into angular velocity. All that is done directly, the physics engine doesn't have the usual design you seem to have read about :) (anyway, collision detection alone would make your previous explanation incomplete) ;)
Last edited by JohnPaul on 29 Jul 2007, 09:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by JohnPaul » 28 Jul 2007, 23:21

PS. the across edge problem is a different thing :) nothing to do with integration method at all

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Post by dz » 29 Jul 2007, 08:30

Yes finally! I think the case is quite much like it was with "supervolt" and "alovolt". I think we all agree that making alovolt equally easy for everyone was good for the scene.

I also think making FPS changing equal for everyone is also good for the scene. For example, it's not even possible for me to change FPS with my system, and that doens't motivate me to play internals. :cry:

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Post by Kopaka » 29 Jul 2007, 11:10

Accidentically voted yes, caus I thought it was "do you whane fps limiter" :I

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Post by milagros » 29 Jul 2007, 11:28

JohnPaul wrote:Sounds like you've recently read documents about physics engines :)
i did some in the past and there was a big difference between these two methods, especially where there were more objects on each other
JohnPaul wrote:It's not Runge Kutta, i know it for sure, and anyway it would make little difference in such a game.
You can be sure in 2 cases :
1. you are Balazs and you have sources
2. you are able to find it in the asm code
How it is done in x-moto is not relevant:)
JohnPaul wrote: Furthermore, collision is not part of the equation solving, Elastomania directly calculates the effect of collisions : the wheel is taken out of the ground, the normal velocity is canceled, and the tangential velocity is converted into angular velocity. All that is done directly, the physics engine doesn't have the usual design you seem to have read about :)
It's always done that way (wheel taken out). Otherwise will objects get into each other easily, the only way is to push them out 'hardcode-ly'.
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Post by milagros » 29 Jul 2007, 13:03

did that limiter in 5 mins, seemed to be working and sent it to zweq to test
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Post by Zweq » 29 Jul 2007, 13:18

this is amazing. fraps says I have 800 fps on the screen but elma works like I was playing with 60 fps, obviously I had to test animal farm first and there was no key pressing delay at all and I did the start on first try. Of course I had to test shelf life too, because it had been impossible to finish with vsync off thanks to too powerful cpu. BANG 200fps and voila, like knife in teh butter

AMAZING like I said, didnt even expect that mila can do magics to remove keypress delay, this was a lot better than expected.
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Post by Abula » 30 Jul 2007, 11:18

Good. I think it's fair patch.
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Post by dz » 30 Jul 2007, 12:30

Zweq wrote:this is amazing. fraps says I have 800 fps on the screen but elma works like I was playing with 60 fps, obviously I had to test animal farm first and there was no key pressing delay at all and I did the start on first try. Of course I had to test shelf life too, because it had been impossible to finish with vsync off thanks to too powerful cpu. BANG 200fps and voila, like knife in teh butter

AMAZING like I said, didnt even expect that mila can do magics to remove keypress delay, this was a lot better than expected.
Great news! Can't wait. :P

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Post by Ve$ » 30 Jul 2007, 15:07

Someday we'll want to see 1:12 animal farm. But for now most of us think that binding few FPS-modes to different keys is a cheat. :cry:


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Post by The_BoneLESS » 30 Jul 2007, 15:35

i didn't vote.

i'd rather play elma with no tuning whatsoever. Got my old Win98, works fine. I can do pretty all the tricks, some are just harder than others. I like the game's simplicity... tuning makes it too complex :wink:
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Post by Crazy » 30 Jul 2007, 15:42

Ve$ wrote:Someday we'll want to see 1:12 animal farm. But for now most of us think that binding few FPS-modes to different keys is a cheat. :cry: Don't beat me with legs for my English...
I won't beat you.. but the voting says:

is fps limiter xiit?
yes
22% [ 6 ]
no
77% [ 21 ]

Total Votes : 27

That means a majority of those who vote WANT this FPS-limiter.

edit: I almost dick "yes" too since I say "aye" to the questions given in mila's post but "nay" for the pollquestion (=
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Post by milagros » 30 Jul 2007, 16:26

Ve$ wrote:But for now most of us think that binding few FPS-modes to different keys is a cheat.
Well, you can get that fps-mode just by having the right computer or tunning it (add external hdd as john does or so)
this only makes it a bit more fair, alovolt patch was definitely bigger 'cheat'
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Post by WkE » 30 Jul 2007, 17:06

Well, my position is like that: first of all, talking about the alovolt - I think it is a cheat, encouraged by people who simply wanted a new cool move. So yes, you could say "we can already do it, so it makes no difference giving it a separate key", but hey, that completely misses the point of the SuperVolt, being the hard-to-perform trick that requires great skillz and timing.

On the other hand, and here I return to the topic, pirately limiting your FPS does not require elma skills, but just the willing to do so. Therefore the FPS-limiter is more like a technical tool for professionals.
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Post by Xiphias » 30 Jul 2007, 17:21

Ve$ wrote:...But for now most of us think that binding few FPS-modes to different keys is a cheat. :cry:
wtf? this option will be available? thought it was just to limit the fps, play and then have to quit to be able to do run in other fps mode. did I miss something or what?
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Post by Palme » 30 Jul 2007, 17:57

Xiphias wrote:
Ve$ wrote:...But for now most of us think that binding few FPS-modes to different keys is a cheat. :cry:
wtf? this option will be available? thought it was just to limit the fps, play and then have to quit to be able to do run in other fps mode. did I miss something or what?
I voted for no too, but if there will be also such modes as Ve$ is talkin about, i would have to rethink this. So hopefully Ve$ just was a bit funny in his head ;P
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Post by milagros » 31 Jul 2007, 13:31

Xiphias wrote:thought it was just to limit the fps, play and then have to quit to be able to do run in other fps mode. did I miss something or what?
no you didn't miss anything, you won't be able to change fps during run
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Post by Zweq » 31 Jul 2007, 15:09

look, tuning is overrated, ppl think wrmakers are relied to that, which doesnt surprise me at all. I have said it before and I'll say it again, there are three internal levels that rely on correct fps, two rely on it heavily, those are 31. Animal farm and 45. Sink, why? because of the wheel sucking holes. However this program's fps changing ability doesnt help at all in those levels, what I've tested. The old vsync on + correct hz to get correct fps for the tricks was good enough way. BUT what this program does help with is the removed keypress delay, that's mostly touch question, like if you're used to play with 500+ fps you'll love this. If you always play with 60 fps and are too mongo to switch vsync, you dont need this prog.

The third level that needs this prog is shelf life, again because of removal of the kpd, which mila said to be around 10ms with 50fps or was it 60fps, I didn't quite understand the technical part. anyway shelf life hole becomes harder the higher fps you have. With 300 it barely went through the hole anymore. Let's take me who always plays with 800 fps, I mean 99% of the time. With 800 fps I can't get under 40 in shelf life because of the hole, and with vsync on I feel so noob that I can barely get under 37. The fps matters less now because there's no kpd, as long as it is under 300, but some 250 should be decent fps, because the bike is acting about same as 800. 250 used to be normal fps back in 02-04, times change people, we have to adapt. No way I'm buying some 700mhz processor.

about milas comment, this is not for noobs, well that's correct. Tuning doesn't help in any big shortcut, fps limiter doesn't help in any big shortcut, fps limiter helps if you have played with vsync off for ten thousand hours and need the same touch in levels requiring low fps. And a noob can't have a touch. And no noob isn't an insult, a noob is newbie, new to the game, but I guess in this matter it means larger part of the scene. Changing fps in sink matters for about maximum of 0,2. in animal farm, well if you think you can do the new route, maybe 2 seconds at max with current knowledge and shelf life is mostly about touch.

Tuning is absolutely useless in other levels, wrs are not made by tuning, wrs are made by touch and tuning is the worst enemy to the touch
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Post by milagros » 31 Jul 2007, 19:00

that's what i call a cool comment, zweq:)

about that keyboard delay - first i though it's because with 50fps one frame takes 20ms so average delay is 10ms

but this patch showed that that's not the reason, so probably it's because directx generate a few frames beforehand (can be set on some graphics cards - default 3) and that's why keyboard seems to be delayed
if that's the reason, it would be averagely 10ms + 3 * 20ms = 70ms
in this patch it still runs upto 1000 fps (limited inside elma) so the delay is 0.5 set frame time + 3 * original frame time = 10ms + 3 * 1ms = 13ms
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Post by Ve$ » 1 Aug 2007, 12:03

milagros wrote:
Xiphias wrote:thought it was just to limit the fps, play and then have to quit to be able to do run in other fps mode. did I miss something or what?
no you didn't miss anything, you won't be able to change fps during run
but you can do it manually making global hotkey for some cpu-time eating process :P

so that addition is not worther than simple fps-limiter.

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Post by Zweq » 1 Aug 2007, 17:01

Ve$ wrote:
milagros wrote:
Xiphias wrote:thought it was just to limit the fps, play and then have to quit to be able to do run in other fps mode. did I miss something or what?
no you didn't miss anything, you won't be able to change fps during run
but you can do it manually making global hotkey for some cpu-time eating process :P

so that addition is not worther than simple fps-limiter.
but where would you need that?
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Post by dorTrus » 2 Aug 2007, 09:33

I hate this tunning shit, but anyway its very interesting discussion here :)
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Post by Ve$ » 2 Aug 2007, 10:04

Zweq wrote:but where would you need that?
me - nowhere yet. but you desired it in 27 and 31.

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Post by Zweq » 2 Aug 2007, 10:35

Ve$ wrote:
Zweq wrote:but where would you need that?
me - nowhere yet. but you desired it in 27 and 31.
changing fps during run would suck and that's what we were talking about
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Post by simon_labroue » 6 Aug 2007, 23:35

WkE wrote:SuperVolt, being the hard-to-perform trick that requires great skillz and timing.
With my comp, I never (or almost never) succeded in making a single alovolt.
With my friend's comp, I've never missed a single one.

That's precisely the reason I've propounded, back then, some patch on the matter, which was nicely received, I believe. Who has never configured an alovolt key, anyway?
The_BoneLESS wrote: i'd rather play elma with no tuning whatsoever. Got my old Win98, works fine. I can do pretty all the tricks, some are just harder than others. I like the game's simplicity... tuning makes it too complex :wink:
I kinda agree. I myself have never tried turning vertical sync on/off, for I've never played to post records online, more than for the fun it brought me to beat my own personal records. :)
dz wrote:Yes finally! I think the case is quite much like it was with "supervolt" and "alovolt". I think we all agree that making alovolt equally easy for everyone was good for the scene.

I also think making FPS changing equal for everyone is also good for the scene. For example, it's not even possible for me to change FPS with my system, and that doens't motivate me to play internals. :cry:
As an experimented man in the field, this certainly won't hurt your playing skills. ;)

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Post by anpdad » 7 Aug 2007, 17:07

Finally elma can be fixed to work almost equal at different systems/comps if desired!
And fps limiters means like... no more vsync changing and sach? Would be nice to finally try animal farm and shelf life without these huge vsync on delays :P Sach not used to them at all.
Release the darned smucking damnshit program ASAP! :D

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Re:

Post by Ves » 28 Sep 2010, 00:12

Zweq wrote:
Ve$ wrote:
milagros wrote:
Xiphias wrote:thought it was just to limit the fps, play and then have to quit to be able to do run in other fps mode. did I miss something or what?
no you didn't miss anything, you won't be able to change fps during run
but you can do it manually making global hotkey for some cpu-time eating process :P

so that addition is not worther than simple fps-limiter.
but where would you need that?
analfarm: 120 fps on start, max fps for snake apple bounce and fly to octopus, some low fps for long jump push (i guess max fps is not the best here, correct me if needed) and max fps for rat hole.

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Re: FPS limiter

Post by milagros » 28 Sep 2010, 00:30

analfarm start impsy outside some 55-65fps range

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Re: FPS limiter

Post by Xiphias » 28 Sep 2010, 11:53

Actually I did this once. Used a global hotkey random overlay program to get low fps at start and then have max fps the rest of the lvl. Worked after a few minutes of tweeking.

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Re: FPS limiter

Post by Zweq » 3 Dec 2010, 16:35

some fps-lowering button could be useful in serpents talli style at first apple, then you could ride the rest of the level with higher fps, at least i always prefer high fps. Then probably in shelf life at teh hole, can't really come up with any other good spots.
Zweq in 2007 wrote:Tuning is absolutely useless in other levels, wrs are not made by tuning, wrs are made by touch and tuning is the worst enemy to the touch
I must admit with todays knowledge this isn't entirely true. modern tricks require a lot of accuracy and just small difference in bike rotation or calculation error (fps difference) might end up in slower, or sometimes even impsy trick. Then there's some levs without really any special trick but they seem to be best driven with 30fps, flat track comes in mind. Not entirely sure how much faster 30fps is compared to let's say 60fps, which used to be pretty much lowest possible fps before fps limiter, some hundreths i guess. At least to some extent some internals require tuning to make wr, but imo it's quite few still and totally only the shortest and easiest höyl levs(and those many times mentioned special tricks).

And on theoretical level I guess my 2007 comment is totally faulty, surely there's some optimal fps on every part of every lev, how ever anyone's gonna ever find out those optimal values.

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Re: FPS limiter

Post by twipleyy » 3 Dec 2010, 17:18

Zweq wrote:there's some levs without really any special trick but they seem to be best driven with 30fps, flat track comes to mind.
Ded wrote: 8O

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Re: FPS limiter

Post by Ves » 6 Dec 2010, 18:40

Zweq wrote:Then there's some levs without really any special trick but they seem to be best driven with 30fps, flat track comes in mind.
more rapid volting than with 60 fps could not be considered as a "special trick" or it's not really about just volting? i remember your similar words about loop-de-loop where 60 fps surprisingly happened to be a very proper choice.

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