Shootings in Utøya

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 23 Jul 2011, 08:19

Most likely well over 100 killed in a well-planned attack, most of them 13-16 years old.

screenshot of shooter's facebook page
slightly graphic; bodies on the shore

He surrendered. I'm waiting for whatever braindead message he has for the world.

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 23 Jul 2011, 20:31

This sure is one fucked up world we are living in. I really can't understand why this shit happens and how anyone could do that.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 23 Jul 2011, 21:18

Some really sick scenario... If a film of such content was created, people would criticise it because of its being bullshitly unreal...
Like a hundred kids killed in the capital city of possibly the most peaceful country in the world. What next?

abruzzi · Post by **abruzzi** » 23 Jul 2011, 23:36

they really should conduct some anti-nerdness policy in norway and finland

btw i hope jonsykkel's nerdism won't ever explode

remember this? http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=5460

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 24 Jul 2011, 01:10

well, the reasons are quite obvious
Norway along with all other nordic countries has always been collectivist, contrary to individualist southern europe. Unlike there, in the history people could survive only if they worked together. On you own in those kind of weather conditions you are fucked. This lead most of the countries so become left-wing - working together for the same goal and sharing the advantages and disadvantages people have. That's why all nordic countries have really high taxes but very high benefits for unemployed, retarded and other people in need. This policy brought loads of immigrants (Berh is a good example); many of them do not understand that not only they have rights, which they always talk about, but also responsibilities. As the number of them raised a lot and their productivity did not, people got fed up. Poeple just have to pay high taxes and "tolerate" the behaviour and culture of the immigrants while they don't accept their own and their population grows rapidly and contribution to the society does not. And at some point (and it's only a question of time) some guy(s) gets really angry. Generations of their parent worked hard to build their country and then some fuck-heads destroy it.

It's not like I'm trying to justify his behaviour, killing people is never the right option. It's just natural consequence of the previous events in the past. Europe should get used to it, it will become only more common. There will be more "white angry men", always pushed down, because they are supposed to discriminate everybody according to all left-wing opinions, leading to a discrimination of themselves.

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 24 Jul 2011, 02:03

and why did he shoot some norwegian teenagers then and not the immigrants or the left-wing-politicians? not a very good explanation imo.

Grace · Post by **Grace** » 24 Jul 2011, 07:50

This is so awful.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 24 Jul 2011, 09:39

Lukazz wrote:and why did he shoot some norwegian teenagers then and not the immigrants or the left-wing-politicians? not a very good explanation imo.

I've seen some interviews with kids who survived. Every single one of them was either (partially) black or arabian

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 24 Jul 2011, 10:52

He slaughtered the most active part of the next generation of a party that supports immigration.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 24 Jul 2011, 11:38

He is mentally sick in a way so there's no way to justify him. A reasonable person "fighting" for some particular goals would never use such means. It's just like I somehow got a gun and started killing black people screaming "I HATE NIGGERS" and the media would try to justify it somehow, just because I have never demonstrated any disturbing behaviour beforehand. I don't think it's a good way out to justify such a massacre. Doing something to diminish this reason (like limiting immigration) is even worse, because 1. the fucker reaches his goal 2. If yet another crazy fuckhead suddenly desires to slaughter some teenagers he will always find a good reason -> no solution at all

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 24 Jul 2011, 11:56

I don't think anyone is trying to justify it. Just answering this:

Ville_J wrote:I really can't understand why this shit happens

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 24 Jul 2011, 11:59

Because some people are fucking sick. The only thing that some can do about it is to kick some neighbour's ass, others have the means to kill a hundred teenagers. Still, there's no difference between them. They are extremely sick people.

ville_j · Post by **ville_j** » 24 Jul 2011, 12:12

Just to be clear, I meant the other kind of 'understanding'. Not whatever the actual reasons that shooter had in mind.

Uncle Milty · Post by **Uncle Milty** » 24 Jul 2011, 13:06

I dont think, that he really is mentally ill, Pawq.
He might be morally ill, that's a difference. YOU shouldn't judge him by any means. Norway should.

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 24 Jul 2011, 13:53

milagros wrote:
Lukazz wrote:and why did he shoot some norwegian teenagers then and not the immigrants or the left-wing-politicians? not a very good explanation imo.
I've seen some interviews with kids who survived. Every single one of them was either (partially) black or arabian

ok, i got wrong informations then.
but i still don't agree with you. compared with other european countries norway seems to have a quite strict immigration policy and handle integration better. their problems with immigration are not even close to countries with real problems, like france or spain! i checked the demographics of norway on wikipedia now too, and i don't know exactly what you mean with "immigrants from other cultures", but i suppose you are talking about muslims. and if you compare the numbers with other european countries again, norway has quite a low number of muslims. some people from pakistan, iraq, iran, somalia and turkey and that's it. in austria 1.6% of the population are just from turkey and we have immigrants from many other countries too and i still don't see our health and welfare system jeopardized. and we have really high taxes too.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 24 Jul 2011, 14:01

in oslo 7,5% are muslims http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Norway; not sure how many more other nonmuslim immigrants from africa / asia
edit: 18,15% of the population of Oslo are "non-western" immigrants

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 24 Jul 2011, 14:25

i think it's still quite a normal number for capitals in europe. vienna has 7.8% of muslim, berlin 7.2% , madrid has 16.2% of non-western immigrants. (didn't find numbers of many other cities). i don't think that numbers alone tell us much about the real situation. i picked some numbers just to point out that norway doesn't have some abnormally huge number of immigrants compared to other european cities. what really matters is how well the immigrants are integrated, how their education and their financial situation is, but that's hard to tell from statistics. i still think - just from what i've heard in the news - that norway and oslo have kinda small problems with immigrants compared with - like i said - france and spain for example.

Chris · Post by **Chris** » 24 Jul 2011, 14:28

21 years max for this massacre?

His actions cost nearly 100 lives.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 24 Jul 2011, 14:35

oslo has about the same number of immigrants as many other cities, so this could have happened anywhere else

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 24 Jul 2011, 14:50

milagros wrote:oslo has about the same number of immigrants as many other cities, so this could have happened anywhere else

ye, because i guess olso has about the same number of xenophobic psychos as many other cities too.

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 24 Jul 2011, 15:14

snajdig · Post by **snajdig** » 24 Jul 2011, 20:58

i read the news about this man, quite disgusting and coward thing what he did. If he has a problem about immigrants then he should kill politics.. (if no other way ) not childrens/teenagers who are completely innocent...

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 24 Jul 2011, 21:20

snajdig wrote:i read the news about this man, quite disgusting and coward thing what he did.

Why is it necessary to mention he was a coward? Would it be more acceptable if he killed only adults?

snajdig wrote:If he has a problem about immigrants then he should kill politics.. (if no other way ) not childrens/teenagers who are completely innocent...

They were future politicians.

snajdig · Post by **snajdig** » 24 Jul 2011, 21:36

[/quote]They were future politicians.[/quote]

Yes they were, but who made immigration Law -> today's politicians -

nick-o-matic · Post by **nick-o-matic** » 24 Jul 2011, 21:36

This guy seems to lack not only morality but also logics. If you hate left wing and their immigration politics you don't massacre 100 people to support your ideology. I don't know anything about politics in Norway but I'd guess nothing can stop left wing winning the next elections anymore.

abruzzi · Post by **abruzzi** » 24 Jul 2011, 21:47

it's obvious he wanted attention to his ideas, now he has got the attention

he prepared everything, so tomorrow you will hear it maybe live from court

his life was probably nerdy, useless, he sacrificed it for his idea

the idea is quite logical, as mila has explained, maybe people will reconsider

now he got what he wanted, also transferred boring life into living

in a luxurious norwayish prison, access to tv and books

will make him curiously follow what happens next

and the attention around the world will amuse him

the government will maybe have a problem, maybe they will have to release him after 21 years

all in all i'm quite astonished that such situations happen actually rarely

there is a lot of morally/mentally ill nerdy guys all over europe

so ez more of such will (sadly) happen, sooner or later

p.s. he said he prepared for 3 years, guess how many more different preparations are now ongoing

FinMan · Post by **FinMan** » 24 Jul 2011, 22:20

This guy totally deserves torturing till he is completely mind fucked and can only look straight forward.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 24 Jul 2011, 23:47

it's quite surprising i sometimes agree with berh

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 25 Jul 2011, 03:58

FinMan wrote:This guy totally deserves torturing till he is completely mind fucked and can only look straight forward.

oh god, i was so waiting for some idiot suggesting death penalty or torture.

nick-o-matic · Post by **nick-o-matic** » 25 Jul 2011, 06:06

I don't really agree with berh. Yes he's got everyone's attention now but what does it help when everyone hates him and his ideas now?

Jappe's point is interesting but on the other hand it's a different thing how humane prisons work in practice. Will the criminals reform or will they just try to profit from the system and laugh while doing so? And to the thought experiement about the magical curing button: is the person still the same person after that kind of button? That sounds positive brainwashing. I'm not sure.

Bismuth · Post by **Bismuth** » 25 Jul 2011, 08:45

All compassion aside, it was a pretty kickass killing spree there. M-M-M-MULTIKILL! Dude's a legend.

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 25 Jul 2011, 09:34

And he hates campers.

ha ha

Zweq · Post by **Zweq** » 25 Jul 2011, 09:49

Bismuth wrote:All compassion aside, it was a pretty kickass killing spree there. M-M-M-MULTIKILL! Dude's a legend.

you stupid fuck, it's monsterkill

Uncle Milty · Post by **Uncle Milty** » 25 Jul 2011, 11:03

I overthought my post and actually it *could* be possible that he is psychotic.

He doesnt seem to suffer from any other mental illness. Maybe he has some strange mixture of personality structures like narcism, compulsion to control or the like.
Now one could start arguing whether his moral opinions are just fucked up or if he really could be chronically psychotic. Either way he shouldn't be let into society for the next decade. Also, unless it is firm whether he has a psychosis or not, he shouldn't be allowed to talk to an audience.

Well, i'm pretty sure that Norway will act pro and won't change anything in immigration policy in the near future, even if they wanted to. Guess what influence it would have o,o

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 25 Jul 2011, 11:33

Zweq wrote:
Bismuth wrote:All compassion aside, it was a pretty kickass killing spree there. M-M-M-MULTIKILL! Dude's a legend.
you stupid fuck, it's monsterkill

30 kills get a Godlike, what do 100 kills get?

Joking aside, this is a quote from wiki's description of psychosis:

wiki wrote:People experiencing psychosis may report hallucinations or delusional beliefs, and may exhibit personality changes and thought disorder. Depending on its severity, this may be accompanied by unusual or bizarre behavior, as well as difficulty with social interaction and impairment in carrying out the daily life activities.

I stick to his being mentally sick.

Uncle Milty · Post by **Uncle Milty** » 25 Jul 2011, 12:05

dont think he has problems with carrying out his daily life activities. actually he was able to prepair this stuff for 3 years (?). As well as survive by eating. sleeping. getting paid - so either work or apply for social benefits. He also seems to be able to properly argue, follow his own opinions and act according to them.

It is not that easy to decide whether he is psychotic or not. He just could be (what is more likely in my opinion) a guy with fucked up morality, like most nazis have been. Who would really want to advance the view, that all nazis have been psychotic?

Pawq, a mental issue like a psychosis is much more chaotic than you seem to think.

pawq · Post by **pawq** » 25 Jul 2011, 12:25

Uncle Milty wrote:dont think he has problems with carrying out his daily life activities. actually he was able to prepair this stuff for 3 years (?). As well as survive by eating. sleeping. getting paid - so either work or apply for social benefits. He also seems to be able to properly argue, follow his own opinions and act according to them.

It is not that easy to decide whether he is psychotic or not. He just could be (what is more likely in my opinion) a guy with fucked up morality, like most nazis have been. Who would really want to advance the view, that all nazis have been psychotic?

Pawq, a mental issue like a psychosis is much more chaotic than you seem to think.

Well, I'm just trying to reason somehow using the information I know. Up to some point he indeed was able to function properly (apparently). He also maybe didn't have delusional beliefs about the politics (probably many people think the way he does/did), but has about the consequences of some actions. That lead to quite bizarre and scary behaviour too...
Also (I don't want it to sound like a conspiracy theory) how do we know that he speaks the truth? He said that he has been preparing this action for three years. Maybe it's just a lie to cover a complex organisation that has been preparing this action for three years and just sent out one their guy to complete "the mission"? I Know he bought those chemical compounds, but that may be a part of a plan too. Terrorists' plans often seem to be quite complex and brilliant, remember 2001? This is 10 years later and Norway, not Afghanistan. I think the whole matter may be a lot deeper than we may think :(
(btw, I'm curious what will muslim terrorists prepare for the 10th anniversary of 11.09.2001...)

I've sent more or less the same as the previous post to Milty and he replied this (I hope you don't mind my bringing the second part of the conversation here Milty):

Uncle Milty wrote:thus u think he shouldnt be sentenced, but rather needs a therapy?

Actually I think that a white room with no windows, no handles, no TV, no radio and no nothing would do better than a civilised prison, so if it's considered to be a therapy...

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 25 Jul 2011, 13:20

I live in Sweden, so why should I care? Things like this happen all the time in less fortunate countries anyway, and we don't seem to really care then. Well, I guess we do care, but it has happened so many times you kinda lose interest. I guess I should care more now because these children were Norwegian and not Somalian, and I guess I do actually, but still I try not to.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 25 Jul 2011, 13:23

not that often, this guy killed more people than the others
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 25 Jul 2011, 13:26

milagros wrote:not that often, this guy killed more people than the others
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer

But this number will most likely only increase. For every spree that occurs the next person has one more source of information on how to go about. This combined with the constant improvements of weapons and equipment will probably lead to an increment of dead people per spree.

NoZKeY · Post by **NoZKeY** » 25 Jul 2011, 13:57

When I first heard (read) about this, I didn't really understand why would someone do that... until I read this thread.

Still I don't see how is immigration such a problem.. why would someone spend years and sacrifice his life to accomplish such goals.. these goals can't justify 93 deaths IMO

Why didn't he spend all these years and planning in something else? Why didn't sacrifice his life to do something else? What does he get from this anyway? Berh post quite convinced me but this man still doesn't get anything, he will still live a boring live, the only difference is he will be in prison. Even if immigration laws change, that won't really affect him..

About torturing/killing him.. wtf? You wouldn't get anything either.

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 25 Jul 2011, 14:03

Igge wrote:
milagros wrote:not that often, this guy killed more people than the others
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer
But this number will most likely only increase. For every spree that occurs the next person has one more source of information on how to go about. This combined with the constant improvements of weapons and equipment will probably lead to an increment of dead people per spree.

i don't think so, old "wr" was almost 30 years old
it is not about the weapons used, it is more about the plan
the most of the spree killings were done "not really planned ahead", just a few days or so, so that's why usually only ~10ppl dead everywhere

Igge · Post by **Igge** » 25 Jul 2011, 14:18

milagros wrote:
Igge wrote:
milagros wrote:not that often, this guy killed more people than the others
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spree_killer
But this number will most likely only increase. For every spree that occurs the next person has one more source of information on how to go about. This combined with the constant improvements of weapons and equipment will probably lead to an increment of dead people per spree.
i don't think so, old "wr" was almost 30 years old
it is not about the weapons used, it is more about the plan
the most of the spree killings were done "not really planned ahead", just a few days or so, so that's why usually only ~10ppl dead everywhere

Well yeah, but if people now see from this event that 3 years of planning really does pay off, some people might plan their actions more thoroughly as well. The weapon thing was just a supplement, and I agree that choice of weapons doesn't really affect that much, but I still think it does help. If you can get a hold of a better weapon, I think your chances of killing more people increase.

But like I said, the fact that it's getting easier and easier to get information on how to go about conducting a spree, I think the number of victims will increase, as the sprees get more efficient over time. Then of course there will always be people who go on sprees without any planning whatsoever, but that's not the point really.

Dahle · Post by **Dahle** » 25 Jul 2011, 15:03

Zweq wrote:
Bismuth wrote:All compassion aside, it was a pretty kickass killing spree there. M-M-M-MULTIKILL! Dude's a legend.
you stupid fuck, it's monsterkill

Wow, these "jokes" are so out of place that you must be retarded to post them.

Dahle · Post by **Dahle** » 25 Jul 2011, 15:40

NoZKeY wrote:When I first heard (read) about this, I didn't really understand why would someone do that... until I read this thread.

Still I don't see how is immigration such a problem.. why would someone spend years and sacrifice his life to accomplish such goals.. these goals can't justify 93 deaths IMO

Why didn't he spend all these years and planning in something else? Why didn't sacrifice his life to do something else? What does he get from this anyway? Berh post quite convinced me but this man still doesn't get anything, he will still live a boring live, the only difference is he will be in prison. Even if immigration laws change, that won't really affect him..

About torturing/killing him.. wtf? You wouldn't get anything either.

If you are referring to milagros' post starting with "well, the reasons are quite obvious", I wouldn't use that as a reliable source. milagros clearly lack knowledge about the political environment in Norway, and Norway in general. However, it would be surprising if he did, as I don't expect many people outside Norway to have in-depth knowledge about Norway.

milagros, I'm not interested in starting a political debate, but first of all, The Norwegian Labour Party (Arbeiderpartiet), and its youth party, AUF, is the largest political party in Norway, and they are left-central http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_Labour_Party. Even though some of the interviewees form the massacre at Utoya were people with non-ethnic Norwegian background, you can't generalize Arbeiderpartiet and AUF to be a party consisting of immigrants. As in all large parties in Norway, they have dedicated non-ethnic Norwegians members.

Secondly, if it weren't for immigrants (including Swedes, Polish, Muslims, Africans etc.), Norway would have a huge problem regarding lack of work force. When it comes to the welfare system in Norway, including substantial unemployment benefits, you are correct that it causes some problems in the society. But; immigrants and non-ethnic Norwegians exploiting this system is a small problem compared to ethnic Norwegians exploiting the unemployment benefits.

There is absolutely no logic in the attacks carried out by Anders Behring Breivik. Probably he, and a handful other far-right extremists, are the only one able make sense out of his actions. Even most far-right movements (obviously) condemn his actions.

snajdig · Post by **snajdig** » 26 Jul 2011, 09:04

Jappe wrote:

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 29 Jul 2011, 13:05

teh killer player world of warcraft and this is what the member of his guild had to say :

I need to vent a bit so I'll use this thread.

I'm reading excerpts from his "Manifesto" and the diary from April until now that he added in the end of it. 1600 pages my friends!

This is what he meant when he said he was writing a book, and I wished him good luck on his book writing and the subsequent "book-tour"... ffs..
He has a paragraph in there in which he explains some of his thoughts on the economical aspects of this "mission". He understood early on that he'd need quite a bit of money in order to be able to do this, and at the age of 25 he had amassed more than 500.000 euro! He drove to Kautokeino (12 hours drive) in order to do tests on his explosives. He travelled to Ukraine to establish a connection with a weapons dealer, he had 2000 euro saved for a high class prostitute that he employed one week prior to this "mission" in order to be in a better state of mind.

This is one higly calculating and cold individual. I fear that all of us have been subject to his plans in the way that he felt that playing competitive world of warcraft (raiding) was a good way to "disconnect" from real life and distance himself from his family and friends. He states this ***** outright in his manifesto. He used all of us in order to get into a better state of mind so that he could fulfill his mission to the best effect.

I feel used... nothing less.. just used.. He also played Modern Warfare 2 in order to practise targetting and movement and explains how it is important to have the right state of mind when playing so as to remember what you are training for, otherwise it becomes "just a game".

There is so much of this that is bat-shit insane and while I'm reading all this I just cant help but appreciate all the effort he's put into this. A small part of my brain keeps thinking "Jesus, he pulled all of this of?" ... I'm not impressed or anything, but I personally couldn't have pulled of even the logistical parts of this.. I mean "I need money" .. bam, couple years later he has 500k euro!?!

He's shaping up to be the subject of debates and discussion for years to come and this Manifesto of his will propably be analyzed over and over a thousand times by countless people. The way he executed every ***** aspect of his plan is mind boggling.. I can barely believe we raided with this chap. We must have seen just a tiny part of his persona.

Finally, being someone who loves to write myself (wall of text post agrees) I spoke to him at length about his book, publishing and many aspects of this, and he had good answers for every freaking question. He must've been so prepared its almost riddiculous.. I'm in awe of the madness of this..

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 31 Jul 2011, 12:18

RIP Neljä Ruusua

milagros · Post by **milagros** » 10 Aug 2011, 16:16

UK : Norway, we have a problem..

Lousku · Post by **Lousku** » 10 Oct 2011, 01:44

facepalm