Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
Moderator: Moporators
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
IMO better make a new cup called World Shown Battle Cup or something.
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
Well, if "World Battle Cup" is some sort of private concept owned by Ramone that's not subject to change by polls, then a cup with shown times might as well be called "The Real World Battle Cup" :)kuchitsu wrote:IMO better make a new cup called World Shown Battle Cup or something.
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
I don't think Ram has any rights to such an official sounding cup, however it has more or less become a brand now. Why not just let WBC be a hidden times cup, and make something new like "Elma Premiere Leauge" or "Elma Grand Prix" with shown times?Lousku wrote:Well, if "World Battle Cup" is some sort of private concept owned by Ramone that's not subject to change by polls, then a cup with shown times might as well be called "The Real World Battle Cup"kuchitsu wrote:IMO better make a new cup called World Shown Battle Cup or something.
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDmwR-u-BwkRuben wrote:I don't think Ram has any rights to such an official sounding cup, however it has more or less become a brand now. Why not just let WBC be a hidden times cup, and make something new like "Elma Premiere Leauge" or "Elma Grand Prix" with shown times?Lousku wrote:Well, if "World Battle Cup" is some sort of private concept owned by Ramone that's not subject to change by polls, then a cup with shown times might as well be called "The Real World Battle Cup"kuchitsu wrote:IMO better make a new cup called World Shown Battle Cup or something.
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
Before WBC1 we decided to go with hidden times for a few reasons:
1. To get a cup feeling. Waiting for the results is always very exciting!
2. So that styles don't get spoiled. If you manage to find a style that is 2s faster and you finish with it other people will most likely know that their style is worse. I think it's better in a competitive sense if you get full advantage from finding such a style. In normal battles I don't care as much about this but if WBC was shown I would play majority of the battle in editor.
3. To make it feel different from Mopobattles. It's a bit lame if the two are identical.
1. To get a cup feeling. Waiting for the results is always very exciting!
2. So that styles don't get spoiled. If you manage to find a style that is 2s faster and you finish with it other people will most likely know that their style is worse. I think it's better in a competitive sense if you get full advantage from finding such a style. In normal battles I don't care as much about this but if WBC was shown I would play majority of the battle in editor.
3. To make it feel different from Mopobattles. It's a bit lame if the two are identical.
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
Zero said it all.
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
Just build new battle cup brands that have their own specifications, i'd say.
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
My reasoning is that WBC is easily the "highest" name you can choose for a balle cup. The name says it's the top level balle competition. The higher esteem, the more players and better contest it will be. So if the majority thinks rules should be changed, they should be changed. Also, there were many differences between WBC1 and 2 so it doesn't seem to be set in stone.Ruben wrote:I don't think Ram has any rights to such an official sounding cup, however it has more or less become a brand now. Why not just let WBC be a hidden times cup, and make something new like "Elma Premiere Leauge" or "Elma Grand Prix" with shown times?Lousku wrote:Well, if "World Battle Cup" is some sort of private concept owned by Ramone that's not subject to change by polls, then a cup with shown times might as well be called "The Real World Battle Cup" :)kuchitsu wrote:IMO better make a new cup called World Shown Battle Cup or something.
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
1. cup feeling is about more than one battle with a winner of the serieZero wrote:Before WBC1 we decided to go with hidden times for a few reasons:
1. To get a cup feeling. Waiting for the results is always very exciting!
2. So that styles don't get spoiled. If you manage to find a style that is 2s faster and you finish with it other people will most likely know that their style is worse. I think it's better in a competitive sense if you get full advantage from finding such a style. In normal battles I don't care as much about this but if WBC was shown I would play majority of the battle in editor.
3. To make it feel different from Mopobattles. It's a bit lame if the two are identical.
2. battle is about that too, dont be pussy to lose because of others find out style, its part of normal battles too, also there is no "last sec steal" with hidden times, which is norm in battles also
3. mopobattles are not cup
All in all, it should be named not world battle cup 1 and 2 it should been "1hour time/event to get good time instead of one week/event cup."
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
I could see very good players favoring hidden times, and average to less than average players favoring shown. My logic is simple though, 95 percent of all the battles I play are shown, it only make sense that the World "Battle" Cup would be shown as well. I also agree you can't patent a name like this. While I commend Zero and Ramone for starting it, them handing over the reigns to nin solidifies the idea that it is similar to the World Cup, which is also not run by any one member. Ultimately it's up to the organizer, and if the organizer wanted to do what the overall community hopes for, the poll clearly shows that the majority would at least prefer some shown battles.
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
It's not about what you are favouring, it's about what is fair. If the times had been shown, I would have never ended up 31st in WBCII04 and could get much better results in general, so for me personally it would even be advantageous. But would that be fair? Wouldn't it be selfish to vote based on what's good for myself? Would it be fun for other players some of whom would choose to play most of the battle in editor so that others couldn't see their time and guess their style?gimp wrote:I could see very good players favoring hidden times, and average to less than average players favoring shown.
WBC is not meant to be the same as most of the battles you play. Regular battles are barely 60 minutes long and played that competitively.gimp wrote:My logic is simple though, 95 percent of all the battles I play are shown, it only make sense that the World "Battle" Cup would be shown as well.
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
Madness wrote:It's not about what you are favouring, it's about what is fair. If the times had been shown, I would have never ended up 31st in WBCII04 and could get much better results in general, so for me personally it would even be advantageous.gimp wrote:I could see very good players favoring hidden times, and average to less than average players favoring shown.
WBC is not meant to be the same as most of the battles you play. Regular battles are barely 60 minutes long and played that competitively.gimp wrote:My logic is simple though, 95 percent of all the battles I play are shown, it only make sense that the World "Battle" Cup would be shown as well.
You are probably right. If the times were shown, you probably wouldnt have ended up 31st in that battle. But then again, if all times were shown there is a chance that you wouldnt have ended up doing as well in other battles, frankly we will never know. We can argue our whole lifetimes on what the definition of "fair" is and neither of us would ever get it right. Are you going to tell me a game of monopoly isnt fair if you are the best player in the world, roll snake eyes every turn, and nobody will ever trade with you because you are the best? you probably wouldnt, but who knows, you might? the point is is that arguing because it isn't "fair" in this scenario is not a black and white argument, but is grayer than your grandpa's pubes. in black and white instances i prefer something objective such as this poll, that clearly tells us people prefer at least some shown battles in WBC. but, since you opened pandoras box:
my definition of fair is that any game is "fair" as long as all players go into it willingly, play by the same rules, dont cheat, and all understand how the game is won. simpler terms is that before the battle starts, outside of talent, we all have the same chance of winning, seems fair to me. if someone wants to play in editor the whole time, that will also be a disadvantage to them, i suspect people probably would use saveload though
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
I am pretty sure Madness along with the most of the pros would do better in normal battles as well as wbc battles in general with hidden times.
What comes to the topic, hidden battles definitely are the more competitive way to go, along with the 60 min battles, as a lot of the people also have pointed out. Just like casual levels and level packs often have shown times and aren't taken as seriously and as competitively, whereas cups which I'd see as the "competitive form of level packs" as mostly people don't use a full week to a single level in a pack and someone can just play one level for the whole 6 months of HALF1A (hi Luthers) etc etc.
Similarly in internals, whenever a new wr with seemingly impossible time shows up, people quickly catch up with the styles in a lot of the cases because you KNOW that "0,4 faster style exists" or "this guy was able to do it that fast, so can i" or so.
So yeah, let's have a ton of more non-serious battle cups and battle evenings and whatever we can imagine, I surely will (try to) attend and for sure enjoy them. This could be the dad of all those with all the seriousness, competitiveness and all that shit, oke?
What comes to the topic, hidden battles definitely are the more competitive way to go, along with the 60 min battles, as a lot of the people also have pointed out. Just like casual levels and level packs often have shown times and aren't taken as seriously and as competitively, whereas cups which I'd see as the "competitive form of level packs" as mostly people don't use a full week to a single level in a pack and someone can just play one level for the whole 6 months of HALF1A (hi Luthers) etc etc.
Similarly in internals, whenever a new wr with seemingly impossible time shows up, people quickly catch up with the styles in a lot of the cases because you KNOW that "0,4 faster style exists" or "this guy was able to do it that fast, so can i" or so.
So yeah, let's have a ton of more non-serious battle cups and battle evenings and whatever we can imagine, I surely will (try to) attend and for sure enjoy them. This could be the dad of all those with all the seriousness, competitiveness and all that shit, oke?
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
i prefer shown times for a few reasons:
1. it can create very hype moment & is more interesting to follow if you decide to not play the whole balle time yourself. there might be stealing & counter-stealing attemps easily followed be everyone.
2. the win rec (and also other recs) will most likely be better because more ppl will find the "correct" style within balle time. this makes the times more optimal & fun.
3. you can make some micro-balles & find some target kuski within your skill level. like: "i can't beat x but i might have a shot on y, let's see if i can improve .35 to beat him".
but of course there are good arguments for hidden standings also, so i dunno
1. it can create very hype moment & is more interesting to follow if you decide to not play the whole balle time yourself. there might be stealing & counter-stealing attemps easily followed be everyone.
2. the win rec (and also other recs) will most likely be better because more ppl will find the "correct" style within balle time. this makes the times more optimal & fun.
3. you can make some micro-balles & find some target kuski within your skill level. like: "i can't beat x but i might have a shot on y, let's see if i can improve .35 to beat him".
but of course there are good arguments for hidden standings also, so i dunno
Re: Should World Battle Cup have shown times?
This post is maby long overdue but Ruben's Elma Grand Prix has proven that we can simply hev multiple big balle contests with different settings and having the name "World Battle Cup" doesn't automatically absorb players and hev them skip other contests. That was a silly argument.
Anyway, at the very least, this poll is a reference point in case an organizer wants to make the cup according to a majority's preference. But ultimately the main thing for a cup's success is having it organized properly in the first place, so whatever an organizer deems good is probably good. My "public service" argument was pretty idiotic. Sorry about that.
Anyway, at the very least, this poll is a reference point in case an organizer wants to make the cup according to a majority's preference. But ultimately the main thing for a cup's success is having it organized properly in the first place, so whatever an organizer deems good is probably good. My "public service" argument was pretty idiotic. Sorry about that.