Tigro wrote:So we all go full KappaPride now again?
Tigro wrote:My earlier post wasn't meant to be hateful in any sense.
How is that post not hateful? You and kuchitsu were the only ones who started spreading the hate after the news have been posted, gimp was the only one who expressed some compassion with, you know, other human beings. I merely linked you a post about love, to help you understand that the people who died just wanted to have fun hanging out in a bar. Your post was really ignorant and all you do is tell me that I think that you are a stupid religious kid. I never said that. Then you just say that you don't give a fuck because "I have eternal life". Shouldn't you try to make it better for other people instead of the opposite while waiting for your afterlife? It's cute that you sad that "I study science, people. I read articles and debates, I watch politics and evaluate things critically.", but in this case you are just spreading hatred because a book told you to do so. How is that evaluating things critically?
Tigro wrote:I did, and I didn't learn anything new. Whatsoever. Pls stop assuming that just because I am religious I am stupid kid. I study science, people. I read articles and debates, I watch politics and evaluate things critically. So pls.
if you study science you may have learned of this thing called "scientific method" and if you apply it to your (or any) religion what is the conclusion you come to? if you still find yourself religious after this exercise i recommend reading about compartmentalization here or this great lesswrong post: outside the laboratory
generally i see that religious texts seem to magically coincide with the beliefs a person already holds, a homophobe will find texts in the bible to confirm his belief and conveniently ignores the parts about tattoos, re-marrying, women speaking in church, or wearing clothes made of more than one type of fabric. tigro did not start hating gays because of the bible, it just provided a justification for it.
ps: i got bad news for you tigro, the science we all know and love actually says you might be gay! Homophobes May Be Hidden Homosexuals and quote from wikipedia:
In 1996, a controlled study of 64 heterosexual men (half said they were homophobic by experience, with self-reported orientation) at the University of Georgia found that men who were found to be homophobic (as measured by the Index of Homophobia)[60] were considerably more likely to experience more erectile responses when exposed to homoerotic images than non-homophobic men.
Oh, oh, let me just quote something from the last year.
Tigro wrote:respect my freedom to call homosexual people faggots.
ville_j wrote:Your freedom drives many people to commit a suicide, get beaten up and/or killed. I hope you are happy with yourself.
You are of course not responsible of what happened now (again), but your views and way to treat "faggots" contribute to the bad atmosphere. I am so disgusted about this. World would be so much better and happier place if you would stop judging and categorizing people and start appreciating them. You should be happy if other people are happy and living their lives without hurting anyone. It won't be possible if you make these people sound like they are some 2nd class citizens and you think your lifestyle is right and that you know what people should do and feel. This is so fucked up.
< roopemies> horror and frustrating and can't play, sounds just like you
Beer battle winner 2014 and 2015
yeh ville i agree, but at the same time the concept of freedom of speach is invented just for those grey-area examples. it might be fucked up, but every individual needs imo be able to express their feelings even if some faggot will be sad (i dont't have anything against homosexuals myself, but i know some ppl do, and weirdly enough man need to see and understand multiple perspective). it's always a bit odd when ppl say things in style with: 'u can think whatever you want, if you think like me/us'. me personally i try to be as open-minded as possible, and that includes critizising both political correctness but also extremism at certain degrees. in my dreamworld ppl would be able to express themselfs as freely as poss without fear of saying the 'wrong' stuff and other ppl would respect/understand opinions that might feel very wrong for them. if anyone wanna try themselfs i have a fun mini-game to share: read a random newspaper (whatever works) and instead of thinking 'omg this is so fucked up' or 'oh shit that's so retarded' try instead to just read, think, and try to understand as many cultural/personal viewpoints as poss, imo it's when we try to reach out and connect we grow both as ppl and society.
I think the most difficult issue with such controversial topics is learning to approach them from multiple angles all at the same time. Psychologically I want to just decide that a thing is either good or bad, and I want all my arguments to support only my side because that's simply easier for my brain. But of course a wise man has to look for both positives and negatives everywhere, and he can dislike an opinion but respect it at the same time. But it's very tough.
Well, my point wasn't that you shouldn't be allowed to voice your opinion, of course the freedom of speech is a good thing. But for as long as you truly believe and speak like you (tigro for example) do it will support the toxic thoughts in other people's minds and it creates unnecessary tension and horrible things like this can happen. I won't blame you for other people's actions, but I can blame you for supporting inequality which can lead into things like this. And for what? Some silly thing they enjoy which happens to be a bit different from your likings. Why would you care and why would you want to make other people feel like shit for something they didn't even choose themselves? It's very weird if you meet some nice person and then in the blink of an eye you go "oh no, it's one these faggots again" when you get to know them. There really isn't any kind of logic behind that, it's just some passionate believing in.. something. People are personalities and individuals, sexuality is only a one part of that person and it shouldn't define them. If you want to live by some religion, that's totally fine by me as long as you don't torment other people. You are not a better person in that sense, religion isn't a fact.
And actually, I really like to discuss all kinds of things with people who disagree with me about anything, and I always ask questions and try to understand their point of view. Unfortunately, I feel like many people aren't as good conversationalist as I am (as arrogant as that might sound), and the discussion really isn't a discussion but this person who disagrees with me just wants to blurt out all their thoughts and not listen to anything I'm trying to say or ask. This has happened so many times that I get really frustrated when it happens. I also have friends who disagree with me and are a bit anti-gay, but it doesn't stop me being friends with them. They are not bad persons, they are actually very nice people but they have this irrational thing that I just can't understand. Our discussions have always ended up in some kind of a weird limbo and the last argument from their part is something like "idk man, i just don't like it".
So yes, you can have your opinion and discuss about these things, of course. But seriously I ask do you think your opinion is so well reasoned that you want to make people feel bad and worthless, causing suicides and whatnot. To me that just sounds so horrible that I want to stay as far from that as possible. Maybe just stop caring what people do if it doesn't involve you? Life is also much easier when you stop caring about unnecessary things.
Edit:
I should also add that this post can also apply to women, black people or whoever who feel like they aren't treated equally.
< roopemies> horror and frustrating and can't play, sounds just like you
Beer battle winner 2014 and 2015
i understand where you're coming from but there is a contradiction in your thoughts. you can't say 'of course the freedom of speech is a good thing' and after that talk about toxic stuff and how bad it is to treat ppl bad. you're not alone in this, but i think you need to choose in this question. either cut off parts of the freedom of speach (like shit talk to minority ppl) or just realize that some ppl will hurt from some actions. we can't have it all.
No, I don't need to cut it. As I said, you can go on and do that, you can say that stuff and make people feel fucking miserable if that's what you want. But it's not very nice, that was my point.
< roopemies> horror and frustrating and can't play, sounds just like you
Beer battle winner 2014 and 2015
ofta wrote:i understand where you're coming from but there is a contradiction in your thoughts. you can't say 'of course the freedom of speech is a good thing' and after that talk about toxic stuff and how bad it is to treat ppl bad. you're not alone in this, but i think you need to choose in this question. either cut off parts of the freedom of speach (like shit talk to minority ppl) or just realize that some ppl will hurt from some actions. we can't have it all.
The thing about freedom of speech is that it goes both ways. Sure, you can say whatever you want, but I'm also free to call you an asshole if you start spewing racist, homophobic, sexist, misogynistic and all-round idiotic garbage. And if you intentionally aim to hurt people (like mocking disabled people while shouting "freedom of speech" like one idiot did at my old school) I will hit you. Hard.
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec
I'd like to add my bit to this discussion, and I had one piece prepared already, but opted not to post it yet. I need to sort my thoughts on this and word it correctly, because so far there has been a lot of misunderstanding and misinterpretation and I'd like to settle it straight. Pls be patient until monday/tuesday when I am after bachelor final exams.
culinko wrote:Tigro: Sure, you don't need to hurry for the sake of argumenting 'in time', this discussion is not going anywhere.
Ruben: Force never solves anything, knowledge and understanding will (although it's much slower).
Well, I'm not aiming to solve anything either am I? I will mention that it was the only time in my life I've ever hit someone, though. I don't like violence, but god damn that guy pissed me off.
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec
you could here in one of the first published videos that he was shouting allahu akbar
you could hear it even though he was in a truck
edit: ofc he might have been shit too:)
But that's the exact thing they are supposed to say and do. Or do you want them to cheer for him instead? This nutjob killed people not because of his religion, he killed people because he was a nutjob, who happened to worship said religion (and, as pointed out by them, sucked at it).
Why doesn't everybody think all white people, conservatives and christians are like Breivik, I wonder? Why aren't all western people condemned for his actions? Oh right, he's not a muslim, so his actions don't count for everybody who has even the slightest resemblance to him. Silly me.
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec
You should watch some videos on LiveLeak.com, US shootings are there on a daily basis. But it's no problem for American cops, they always arrive in time and shoot everyone involved.
I'm just loling at the fact that the city is called Nice in English (in Russian it's like Nicca or Nittsa so this was a big surprise). There is even a hashtag called #NiceAttack! Sorry for dumb insensitive post but I just can't sit still because NOONE TALKS ABOUT HOW THIS IS FUNNY!
What the fuck I had no idea that shootings in US happen that often. Holy shit that's sickening.
Well, that's only a list of mass shootings, which is defined as four or more dead or injured. That means anything with three or less isn't even on the list.
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec
milagros wrote:let's guess the religion of the attackers in munich, before it's officially revealed
It's five years ago today since 77 people in Norway were massacred, all I could see all over the place was "It's time to take out the trash" (the trash being muslims), before they realized it was a white Norwegian christian man. Piss off with your shit.
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec
Ruben wrote:It's five years ago today since 77 people in Norway were massacred, all I could see all over the place was "It's time to take out the trash" (the trash being muslims), before they realized it was a white Norwegian christian man. Piss off with your shit.
maybe these guys in germany are also christians! and maybe not
edit: last year I visited korea and they showed some baseball match japan vs korea in the tv from 6 years ago. They played several time each year against each other since that, but they still showed this particular match. What do you think - why?
edit3: i guess all media info is bullshit - they said they had rifles, but apparently the guy in the video does not have one - and all sources said there were 3 attackers, now there might be only one
Ruben and culino, what do you mean? Is it somehow wrong of mila to assume that a shooting in 2016 is done by muslims? Why would you act hostile towards that? It's pretty likely by now.
mila beisikly just guessed the attackers were muslim, nothing else, and Ruben mentioned people jumping to "taking out the trash", and then went hissy over that. Really, why do so many otherwise sensible people act like this around this topic?
then again i don't know anything maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
About god being a piece of shit, allowing Hitler to go nuts, etc. I don't know, would you want to have a god that gives everyone free home, food, education and basically paradise on earth for no effort at all? Would we even be able to appreciate all that if we didn't earn it by ourselves? My guess is people would get bored of that perfect paradise very quickly, maybe even start killing themselves feeling that life is entirely pointless because there is nothing to strive for. I think god's true gift is all these problems in the world that we have to fight, therefore making ourselves stronger and feeling alive when achieving something. Now, he probably wants the humanity to fix all these problems but he won't rob us of the pleasure of solving them. Or maybe he actually hopes that the problems will never end because they give humans a reason to live and do something instead of lying in bed eating chips or whatever.
kuchitsu wrote:About god being a piece of shit, allowing Hitler to go nuts, etc. I don't know, would you want to have a god that gives everyone free home, food, education and basically paradise on earth for no effort at all? Would we even be able to appreciate all that if we didn't earn it by ourselves? My guess is people would get bored of that perfect paradise very quickly, maybe even start killing themselves feeling that life is entirely pointless because there is nothing to strive for. I think god's true gift is all these problems in the world that we have to fight, therefore making ourselves stronger and feeling alive when achieving something. Now, he probably wants the humanity to fix all these problems but he won't rob us of the pleasure of solving them. Or maybe he actually hopes that the problems will never end because they give humans a reason to live and do something instead of lying in bed eating chips or whatever.
Then you can wander why this god made humans forever yearn for better conditions. It's not a mathematical fact or anything, just a quality in humans. Anyway, I'm gonna go light my penis on fire so that I'll feel more alive when I put it out.
then again i don't know anything maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
Lousku wrote:Ruben and culino, what do you mean? Is it somehow wrong of mila to assume that a shooting in 2016 is done by muslims? Why would you act hostile towards that? It's pretty likely by now.
mila beisikly just guessed the attackers were muslim, nothing else, and Ruben mentioned people jumping to "taking out the trash", and then went hissy over that. Really, why do so many otherwise sensible people act like this around this topic?
I only said that I am sick of his passive-aggressive comments, nothing more. It's not the contents, it's the form. Mocking people of other religions, countries and culture along with witty remarks. Yeah, that's really hilarious. Not.
culinko wrote:Mocking people of other religions, countries and culture along with witty remarks. Yeah, that's really hilarious. Not.
we got to the state, where it is perfectly acceptable to mock/attack christians (I don't considered to be one), white people, heterosexuals, cis-gender (who the fuck came up with that term) men
but if it was the other way round, it would cause outrage
And how does mocking other people help with the discussion in this topic? What kind of value does it add? Mocking any group of people or an individual is dumb. It's almost the same as bullying.
i'm just pointing out their religion is not compatible with "western values' and thus should be illegal (same as nazism is illegal in most european countries)
Madness wrote:But then Christianity would have to be illegal too. Think about it.
i don't see why that should be the case, i don't see anyone in europe killing random people in the name of jesus
in any case, i still failed to understand the whole logic of terrorist attacks
for example today's explosions in afghanistan :
a few religious guys blew themselves and killed lots of other muslims in the name of allah, the same god they believe in
assuming allah exists and muhammad is his prophet, why the fuck would he send them to heaven with xx virgins?
Madness wrote:But then Christianity would have to be illegal too. Think about it.
i don't see why that should be the case, i don't see anyone in europe killing random people in the name of jesus
in any case, i still failed to understand the whole logic of terrorist attacks
for example today's explosions in afghanistan :
a few religious guys blew themselves and killed lots of other muslims in the name of allah, the same god they believe in
assuming allah exists and muhammad is his prophet, why the fuck would he send them to heaven with xx virgins?
Because they have nothing. Their entire goverment is corrupt, and they don't know who to trust or what to do. But what they do know is that the U.S. and NATO have brought with them a lot of death and destruction, so they want to fight it. The groups they find are extremist cells, like Al Quida or ISIS, and they are indoctrinated into their way of thinking. Essentially, they are doing the same thing as everyone who masturbates to Trump's poisonous rhetoric. They have a twisted idea of fighting for their country and their religion, just like U.S. troops have the same twisted idea that when they are deployed in the middle east they are somehow fighting for their country and their religion. Soliders fighting for in the name of Jesus have killed more than 4 million muslims, so fuck off with your "i don't see anyone in europe killing random people in the name of jesus." In the end religion is not to blame for this, it's the vile hatered that is spreading throughout the world that is to blame. Right wing rhetoric of them and us from both sides. It's what ISIS wants, and they have been massively successful so far.
Do you know why these attacks have escalated so much lately? Because they're extremely effective. It's immideate headlines in the entire world. Every single time. (Though only when it happens in the west, of course). The number of deaths by terrorism in the west is miniscule, but it's always blown out of proportion so it's a very attractive stage for people who have lost touch with reality.
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec
kuchitsu wrote:About god being a piece of shit, allowing Hitler to go nuts, etc. I don't know, would you want to have a god that gives everyone free home, food, education and basically paradise on earth for no effort at all? Would we even be able to appreciate all that if we didn't earn it by ourselves? My guess is people would get bored of that perfect paradise very quickly, maybe even start killing themselves feeling that life is entirely pointless because there is nothing to strive for. I think god's true gift is all these problems in the world that we have to fight, therefore making ourselves stronger and feeling alive when achieving something. Now, he probably wants the humanity to fix all these problems but he won't rob us of the pleasure of solving them. Or maybe he actually hopes that the problems will never end because they give humans a reason to live and do something instead of lying in bed eating chips or whatever.
A God that lets children by the millions get born into disease, poverty and hunger, only to die months later, is clearly evil. He revels in pain and misery, and if the Christian faith were to be true I would refuse entry into heaven. I am better than his horrors.
And to Mila, no, I don't like islam either. But christians deeming Islam to be "wrong" or "outdated" is nothing short of hypocrisy. I don't know if you're a christian, but there certainly are a lot of them.
EDIT: I'm not saying christians and muslims are evil, only their dieties. In fact I've never met either a christian or a muslim who weren't super nice, so please don't misunderstand me. It's religion I have a problem with, not religious people.
Last edited by Ruben on 23 Jul 2016, 20:53, edited 2 times in total.
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec
Madness wrote:But then Christianity would have to be illegal too. Think about it.
i don't see why that should be the case, i don't see anyone in europe killing random people in the name of jesus
1) You actually want to ban a religion on the grounds that some people of that religion are terrorists?
2) Have you heard of Breivik?
3) If you see atheists killing others because of their faith, will you call for a ban on atheism?
I agree with everything you said before, but I can't agree on this. Atheism is a belief that God does not exist, not a lack of faith or anything like that. Being an atheist is as preposterous as being religious, because you cannot know whether God exists or not.
Madness wrote:I agree with everything you said before, but I can't agree on this. Atheism is a belief that God does not exist, not a lack of faith or anything like that. Being an atheist is as preposterous as being religious, because you cannot know whether God exists or not.
“I do not pretend to be able to prove that there is no God. I equally cannot prove that Satan is a fiction. The Christian god may exist; so may the gods of Olympus, or of ancient Egypt, or of Babylon. But no one of these hypotheses is more probable than any other: they lie outside the region of even probable knowledge, and therefore there is no reason to consider any of them.”
― Bertrand Russell
It might be a belief, but it has nothing to do with faith.
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec
In "Star Maker" the bad stuff is explained like this (ty Wikipedia):
The climax of the book is the "supreme moment of the cosmos", when the cosmical mind (which includes the narrator) attains momentary contact with the "Star Maker" of the title. The Star Maker is the creator of the universe, but stands in the same relation to it as an artist to his work, and calmly assesses its quality without any feeling for the suffering of its inhabitants.
That's not necessarily evil, it could be compared to a level maker deleting an apple in his Elma level because he thinks it damages the gameplay, or some guy smashing a cockroach when he sees one in his kitchen. Might seem evil to that cockroach but for the guy it's just taking care of the house.
