TAS has never been about what is possible for humans to doTm wrote: simple human ability to contract muscle fingering a key that fast
Saveload WR table
Moderator: Moporators
Re: Saveload WR table
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Re: Saveload WR table
Suarly you could go through TAS records and find a lot of specific moments where button presses are too quick and perfect to do live. I think it's a ridiculous idea to start dissecting those and instituting some limit of buttonpresses per second. Somehow these have not been complained about before.
Seems like TAS is seen differently by players and viewers. Players are looking for theoretical limits, while viewers think it's an exploration of human limits or something..? It never was about that, as bene said. You've already accepted a lot of inhuman moves. Chainpops are no different.
Seems like TAS is seen differently by players and viewers. Players are looking for theoretical limits, while viewers think it's an exploration of human limits or something..? It never was about that, as bene said. You've already accepted a lot of inhuman moves. Chainpops are no different.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
Re: Saveload WR table
both thanks for clarify, I won't foster fool hopes no more.
seems like some people, including me, has very diff viewing on elma - is normal.
seems like some people, including me, has very diff viewing on elma - is normal.
Re: Saveload WR table
The issue is basically that there are 2 different approaches to TASing in elma:
- theoretical best times (as in other games with TAS) which utilize all bugs and glitches
- legit driveable runs using SL, which is what Schumi, me and iltsu (assuming he's not trolling) would like to see
I also think the rules for the current SL table are weirdly set, as I already mentioned a couple of times in the past. The current rules for the SL table are the following: bug bounces, bug pops, hooked bugs and bug stretches are not allowed, but grip wheel pops (and chain pops as we can see with lab pro being added) are allowed. The easiest solution I can think of is that there should be 2 tables, one for each approach. For the first approach resembling TAS theme from other games, the table should allow all glitches, bugs, stretches and wheel pops (such as bene's 10 minute run) and for the second approach the table should not allow any. Currently the only SL table we have allows only some bugs/glitches, which is weird. It should either allow all or none.
- theoretical best times (as in other games with TAS) which utilize all bugs and glitches
- legit driveable runs using SL, which is what Schumi, me and iltsu (assuming he's not trolling) would like to see
I also think the rules for the current SL table are weirdly set, as I already mentioned a couple of times in the past. The current rules for the SL table are the following: bug bounces, bug pops, hooked bugs and bug stretches are not allowed, but grip wheel pops (and chain pops as we can see with lab pro being added) are allowed. The easiest solution I can think of is that there should be 2 tables, one for each approach. For the first approach resembling TAS theme from other games, the table should allow all glitches, bugs, stretches and wheel pops (such as bene's 10 minute run) and for the second approach the table should not allow any. Currently the only SL table we have allows only some bugs/glitches, which is weird. It should either allow all or none.
Re: Saveload WR table
The problem with that is that if all bugs are allowed the recs (and the playing) is total horror. Did you not see the Lab Pro rec that was like 10 seconds long?
<veezay> antti also gonna get stabbed later this month
<nick-o-matic> niec
<nick-o-matic> niec
Re: Saveload WR table
Currently the only WR table we have allows only some bugs/glitches, which is weird. This table is basically following the same rules of that table but has recently had to make some decisions for tricks that are not yet made live so they are not defined for that table. On that note I don't see any reason a chainpop live WR would not be accepted.
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Re: Saveload WR table
Like I said earlier we made the best possible ride based on the rules of the table while trying to use our best judgement on bug bounces.
I have not yet commented on the rules of the table And I think I will not comment on those either, because it is impossible to reach optimal solution with current fundamental problems with elma code. (varying timestep/fps and bug bounces). I think madness has done fairly ok job making some sense out of the chaos. He and bene even tried to implement a method for checking what is a bug and what not with the air test etc. I don't see anyone else contributing in anyway beside yearning for "pleasant recs for the eye".
The optimal scenario for my brain is the following:
If this happened, we could always go ALL OUT without any speculation or arbitrary limitations.
I have not yet commented on the rules of the table And I think I will not comment on those either, because it is impossible to reach optimal solution with current fundamental problems with elma code. (varying timestep/fps and bug bounces). I think madness has done fairly ok job making some sense out of the chaos. He and bene even tried to implement a method for checking what is a bug and what not with the air test etc. I don't see anyone else contributing in anyway beside yearning for "pleasant recs for the eye".
The optimal scenario for my brain is the following:
Code: Select all
- Elma2 is completed and works like this:
- Physics and rendering are separated into physics FPS and rendering FPS, which I think has been done already
- Bug bounces are fixed
- Mans can choose physics FPS ingame except:
- In battles / cup events the author can "lock" physics FPS to certain value so that everyone is forced to use that same value and have exact same conditions. (so you can make vsync battles etc where mans dont have to find correct value themselves). When the battle / event is over then mans can use whatever physics FPS they want again.
- Physics FPS is always static throughout the ride and will not vary
- Saveloading tool is developed for elma 2 where static physics FPS must be used and bug bounces don't exist
- We have a records table for times made with this new tool
Last edited by Zweq on 16 Aug 2017, 17:07, edited 1 time in total.
- Grace
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Re: Saveload WR table
So many dumb in this whole community for so long.
I can't think of any other community which has to have a judge preside over certain replicatable tricks to determine if it's "too bug" or not. Aside from the fact that "too bug" is entirely subjective and there is 100% no possibility of "too bug" definition remaining constant over 10+ years. It's either bug and should be ban, or not. px doing this with real WR table is stupid, and making madik do it here is stupid too. You end up with stupid situations like stini Enigma which noone reached consensus over for literally a decade.
Then it's another road down into fuckhead ville with this bullshit whinging about what is or isn't acceptable for the "Saveload" WR table. I could actually understand why people want those bongo bene stretch recs to not exist in SL WR table because they are so wierd, however IMO there should be just one condition to make WR on the "Saveload WR table" and that is to drive the run with saveload.
Any discussion about "omg 13.2x in this rec is slightly too buggy he pressed 2 keys in 2 frames omg" is just some bullshit whining. If you want to have conditions on what you consider legitimate, by all means go ahead, but don't fuck around with a pseudo-official table because of your opinions. The simple truth is that if you're thinking about whether a run is "mechanically achievable" by humans, your understanding of what TAS represents is such that you shouldn't be weighing in on the discussion anyway. (Or at the very least, not with that viewpoint).
Should also remind some idiots that in 2006 people thought pipe bounce, steppes brutal, ramp brutal, etc were impossible, and if not, TAS only. Things change over time. Only a year or two ago wheelpops were discover and people were like "wuaha how is this even possible so impsy" and now bene does them consistently.
Either that or rename this thread "Saveload with restrictions WR table" and be done with it.
In any case, it's quite simple to ask Madness to maintain this table a bit differently. Ez have
etc.
Can even have a variety of rulesets like "no buggy bounce", "no fps switching" etc.
I can't think of any other community which has to have a judge preside over certain replicatable tricks to determine if it's "too bug" or not. Aside from the fact that "too bug" is entirely subjective and there is 100% no possibility of "too bug" definition remaining constant over 10+ years. It's either bug and should be ban, or not. px doing this with real WR table is stupid, and making madik do it here is stupid too. You end up with stupid situations like stini Enigma which noone reached consensus over for literally a decade.
Then it's another road down into fuckhead ville with this bullshit whinging about what is or isn't acceptable for the "Saveload" WR table. I could actually understand why people want those bongo bene stretch recs to not exist in SL WR table because they are so wierd, however IMO there should be just one condition to make WR on the "Saveload WR table" and that is to drive the run with saveload.
Any discussion about "omg 13.2x in this rec is slightly too buggy he pressed 2 keys in 2 frames omg" is just some bullshit whining. If you want to have conditions on what you consider legitimate, by all means go ahead, but don't fuck around with a pseudo-official table because of your opinions. The simple truth is that if you're thinking about whether a run is "mechanically achievable" by humans, your understanding of what TAS represents is such that you shouldn't be weighing in on the discussion anyway. (Or at the very least, not with that viewpoint).
Should also remind some idiots that in 2006 people thought pipe bounce, steppes brutal, ramp brutal, etc were impossible, and if not, TAS only. Things change over time. Only a year or two ago wheelpops were discover and people were like "wuaha how is this even possible so impsy" and now bene does them consistently.
Either that or rename this thread "Saveload with restrictions WR table" and be done with it.
In any case, it's quite simple to ask Madness to maintain this table a bit differently. Ez have
etc.
Can even have a variety of rulesets like "no buggy bounce", "no fps switching" etc.
Cyberscore!
___________________________________________________
Targets: 6 Legendary, 23 WC, 20 Pro, 5 Good | AvgTT: 39:59:96
___________________________________________________
Targets: 6 Legendary, 23 WC, 20 Pro, 5 Good | AvgTT: 39:59:96
- Kopaka
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Re: Saveload WR table
Not really, they're pretty simply: Same as real WR table but saveload allowed.culinko wrote:I also think the rules for the current SL table are weirdly set
Everything here is drivable runs using SL and without bugs/glitches. It seems like what some people want to see is times that are percieved to be possible to drive without SL with a really lucky run. Doing one wheelpop is very doable by any random pleb, doing 8 in a second or whatever like in the lap pro replay is quite clearly not possible by anyone without SL. The issue is there's absolutely no way to figure out where to draw the line, and even if you did it would just be about taking it right to that limit.culinko wrote:- legit driveable runs using SL, which is what Schumi, me and iltsu (assuming he's not trolling) would like to see
--
Personally I give two flying fucks about saveload tables, but getting tired of reading this lol. No reason to get mad over it. If someone dislikes the rules of this table they are free to make another, just be sure you make rules that are actually enforcable. I think only really good suggestion so far is one with and without changing fps. If there's enough interest for that I don't know. Things like bug bounce tables have not been made largely because people just don't find that interesting I believe.
Re: Saveload WR table
I disagree with the definition then. I think wheel-pops (and chain wheel-pops) should fall into the category of bugs/glitches.Kopaka wrote:Everything here is drivable runs using SL and without bugs/glitches.
There is and I already suggested it multiple times. Either don't allow wheel-pops or use some fixed fps value that would not allow these bugs/glitches (need new elma).Kopaka wrote:The issue is there's absolutely no way to figure out where to draw the line
The only person mad about this (so far) seems to be Haruhi.Kopaka wrote:No reason to get mad over it.
Re: Saveload WR table
I myself don't find them appealing (although they are definitely very interesting), I am talking about TASing in other games, which usually allow for bugs and glitches. I was talking about elma TASing using the same rules, for example if bene decided to go for TAS elma run at AGDQ, I would want to have all bugs (even hooked bug) allowed. So if he did 15 second Lab Pro there, it should naturally be accepted.Ruben wrote:The problem with that is that if all bugs are allowed the recs (and the playing) is total horror. Did you not see the Lab Pro rec that was like 10 seconds long?
Re: Saveload WR table
first of all it would be nice to see a list of shampoo-positive levels... of there is only 2 or 3, there is not much to talk about...
Elasto Mania - 34:21.69 | #421 - 11. April 2024
Ancient Internals
Ancient Internals
Re: Saveload WR table
1,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,15,16,20,22,23,24,26,27,28,29,31,33,34,35,36,37,38,39,41,42,43,45,46,48,49,50,51,52,53,54 are the ones I can imagine having a shampoo spot when thinking about each level for about 2 seconds at least it would be worth exploring.
Edit: wait fak im supposed to ignroe you
Edit: wait fak im supposed to ignroe you
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Re: Saveload WR table
There are three kinds of TAS tables you can have.culinko wrote:The issue is basically that there are 2 different approaches to TASing in elma:
- theoretical best times (as in other games with TAS) which utilize all bugs and glitches
- legit driveable runs using SL, which is what Schumi, me and iltsu (assuming he's not trolling) would like to see
I also think the rules for the current SL table are weirdly set, as I already mentioned a couple of times in the past. The current rules for the SL table are the following: bug bounces, bug pops, hooked bugs and bug stretches are not allowed, but grip wheel pops (and chain pops as we can see with lab pro being added) are allowed. The easiest solution I can think of is that there should be 2 tables, one for each approach. For the first approach resembling TAS theme from other games, the table should allow all glitches, bugs, stretches and wheel pops (such as bene's 10 minute run) and for the second approach the table should not allow any. Currently the only SL table we have allows only some bugs/glitches, which is weird. It should either allow all or none.
1) All bugs allowed (there you go)
2) Some bugs allowed
3) No bugs allowed (includes all bounces and maybe even alovolt too)
This table is the second option and the rules are based on reproducibility and the tools we have. Wheel pops are (easily) reproducible. Chain pops are several wheel pops in quick succession and are reproducible too. Chain pops with fps switching are theoretically reproducible, because you can theoretically change fps the same way in regular Elma too (we just don't have the tools yet).
Either way, there are three possible rules:
1) Allow all wheel pops
2) Allow some wheel pops / only a certain number within a certain time (not possible, because we don't have the tools to detect them / count them / judge their strength / nothing)
3) Disallow all wheel pops (not possible again, because we don't have the tools to detect them and some aren't visible to the naked eye - for example 1.9x in this rec is a wheel pop too)
I am not saying these rules are perfect, but you didn't suggest anything better.
Re: Saveload WR table
To me the rules set by madik, bene and zampik are quite coherent and thought-through. They have the most experience with SL and to me it feels like they want the same result as the rest of the community - pushing the limits while the reks still being eye pleasing.
I love almost everything you guys produce (I would love u10mins TT vid too, but it is too impsy to watch in 1x speed).
Edit: here I had a paragraph about why some ideas given in this thread are stupid, but all was kinda answered already
I love almost everything you guys produce (I would love u10mins TT vid too, but it is too impsy to watch in 1x speed).
Edit: here I had a paragraph about why some ideas given in this thread are stupid, but all was kinda answered already
Re: Saveload WR table
Great job and everything Madness.
Bene rocks
Zweq rocks
Elma rocks
I <3 rocks and stone3
Bene rocks
Zweq rocks
Elma rocks
I <3 rocks and stone3
[i cruise, i lev, i live]
Re: Saveload WR table
flattrack 14.66 has some shampooing, only it wasn't called that way a few years ago
[carebox]
Re: Saveload WR table
Afaik Madness was the only one who set the rules, because it is his table.Bludek wrote:To me the rules set by madik, bene and zampik are quite coherent and thought-through.
Re: Saveload WR table
Why dont you share it then finally?milagros wrote:flattrack 14.66 has some shampooing, only it wasn't called that way a few years ago
Elasto Mania - 34:21.69 | #421 - 11. April 2024
Ancient Internals
Ancient Internals
Re: Saveload WR table
Imo popping is no problem..we accepted 30 fps rides Loooooong ago, and tons of other weird shit happens with 30 fps. You brake and push on some edge. Some tries sick, some not. We cant all of a sudden delete all 30 fps wrs cause it doesnt fit everyones idea of elma.
And not allowing fps changing (tas or eol) doesnt work. Timer on/off changes it, progs in bg. Its never constant anyway. So then all current wrs had to be deleted? Its just idiot. So if it has always been allowed in EOL/Non-Tas, how can it not be allowed in Tas?
Tas is Tas. Get over yourself nabs, you know who you are (I would name you but forgot names)
And not allowing fps changing (tas or eol) doesnt work. Timer on/off changes it, progs in bg. Its never constant anyway. So then all current wrs had to be deleted? Its just idiot. So if it has always been allowed in EOL/Non-Tas, how can it not be allowed in Tas?
Tas is Tas. Get over yourself nabs, you know who you are (I would name you but forgot names)
Elasto Mania - ez better
Re: Saveload WR table
Nobody said that old WRs have to be deleted, stop making up silly stuff to get your point across. Why are so many people triggered by this and just hating on other people for having different opinions and calling them out as nabs, idiots and trying to shut down any discussion about the issue that was raised by multiple members of the community? It's just lame. Why are so many people in the 200 player community about 2D motorbike so elitist nowadays?
Re: Saveload WR table
The consequences of not accepting these new tasrides (like chainpopping) for sl table would be fpschange is not allowed, if its not allowed for tas, how could it be for real rides?
Im just trying to explain to you that it doesnt work.
Tasing as far as I understand was always to push the limits. Tasrides arent really possible with norm play in any game. What bene/zweq does is just same as others do with other games.
From my point of view only reason is it dost fit your idea of elma.
Its quite interesting that you cant drive official wrs with official elma, you need an offcial EOL elma to do that. Where you can limit FPS, change zoom/resolution. Have speedometre and appletimes, merge, watch recs in slomo/fast forward etc. Alovolt and so on. I dont wanna limit that, ofc. But all these settings is a violation to the "real" elma. Where were your concerns when these things happened?
Its a god damn SL table. Its not "best you can do with sl but still make me believe its doable in real play"-table. Just saying.
And, once again, get over yourselves.
/Ram
Im just trying to explain to you that it doesnt work.
Tasing as far as I understand was always to push the limits. Tasrides arent really possible with norm play in any game. What bene/zweq does is just same as others do with other games.
From my point of view only reason is it dost fit your idea of elma.
Its quite interesting that you cant drive official wrs with official elma, you need an offcial EOL elma to do that. Where you can limit FPS, change zoom/resolution. Have speedometre and appletimes, merge, watch recs in slomo/fast forward etc. Alovolt and so on. I dont wanna limit that, ofc. But all these settings is a violation to the "real" elma. Where were your concerns when these things happened?
Its a god damn SL table. Its not "best you can do with sl but still make me believe its doable in real play"-table. Just saying.
And, once again, get over yourselves.
/Ram
Elasto Mania - ez better
Re: Saveload WR table
So from "let's have a discussion about wheelpops" because multiple people raised concerns about the issue you concluded that we need to disallow old WRs because they have been driven at 30 fps? To my knowledge, with the introduction of the online play requirement, offline times that have been driven prior haven't been removed from Moposite and are still valid.
Yep, people with different opinions who actually want to discuss issues instead of shutting down the discussion, marginalizing it and insulting the other side are the ones who need to "get over yourselves". Nice projection there.Ramone wrote:And, once again, get over yourselves.
Re: Saveload WR table
Dunno if I orka talk more. It is not allowed to drive official wrs with official elma. There once were, yes. But not anymore.
Animal farm start? Shelf Life sc?
Using 30 fps is almst like a bug, but we allwed it. Ppl seem to be oke with popping but not chainpopping. I just dont understand.
Animal farm start? Shelf Life sc?
Using 30 fps is almst like a bug, but we allwed it. Ppl seem to be oke with popping but not chainpopping. I just dont understand.
Elasto Mania - ez better
Re: Saveload WR table
Spot on.Ramone wrote:The consequences of not accepting these new tasrides (like chainpopping) for sl table would be fpschange is not allowed, if its not allowed for tas, how could it be for real rides?
Ramone wrote:Get over yourself nabs, you know who you are (I would name you but forgot names)
Re: Saveload WR table
What happened?
Re: Saveload WR table
The update schedule has changed due to the lack of new WRs. It will be updated on 1 January every year from now on.
Re: Saveload WR table
Seriously... At least update everytime a new one is madeMadness wrote:The update schedule has changed due to the lack of new WRs. It will be updated on 1 January every year from now on.
Re: Saveload WR table
i did int10 wr 10:45 very pro
Re: Saveload WR table
show rec or lie
Elasto Mania - 34:21.69 | #421 - 11. April 2024
Ancient Internals
Ancient Internals
Re: Saveload WR table
5 days left for update
Elasto Mania - 34:21.69 | #421 - 11. April 2024
Ancient Internals
Ancient Internals
Re: Saveload WR table
only 4 days now, im excited
Re: Saveload WR table
how many new wrs?bene wrote:WOW STOKE
Re: Saveload WR table
Update:
02. Flat Track — milagros - 14.66 Spef - 14.63
10. The Steppes — milagros - 10.49 bene - 10.39
13. Hill Legend — Spef - 13.83 bene - 13.79
02. Flat Track — milagros - 14.66 Spef - 14.63
10. The Steppes — milagros - 10.49 bene - 10.39
13. Hill Legend — Spef - 13.83 bene - 13.79
Re: Saveload WR table
nice records, to me it doesnt show here, only in separate table on speed siteMadness wrote:Update:
02. Flat Track — milagros - 14.66 Spef - 14.63
10. The Steppes — milagros - 10.49 bene - 10.39
13. Hill Legend — Spef - 13.83 bene - 13.79
Re: Saveload WR table
int14 17:29 redrove from start with uuutuus and sloppish end imo I can 17:25 maybe thanks
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Re: Saveload WR table
please rek. ok 10xh baer
Elasto Mania - 34:21.69 | #421 - 11. April 2024
Ancient Internals
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Re: Saveload WR table
17:23 I give up until find 17:15 style
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Re: Saveload WR table
grats!
only 358 days left til update...
only 358 days left til update...
Elasto Mania - 34:21.69 | #421 - 11. April 2024
Ancient Internals
Ancient Internals
Re: Saveload WR table
i investigated that 17.35 rec has more powerful wheelpop at the rectangle so 17.22 or 21 is fuk easy
Elasto Mania - 34:21.69 | #421 - 11. April 2024
Ancient Internals
Ancient Internals
Re: Saveload WR table
it is not always about the "strength" of wheelpop, but more about the grip you get afterwards
for example the strongest pops in freefall don't lead to best times
for example the strongest pops in freefall don't lead to best times
[carebox]
Re: Saveload WR table
My investigation when driving the rec showed that stronger pop gives worse rotation and with weaker you can vrom for longer on floor which turned out faster but I just tried both strong and weak once so what do I know. Here dat so you can try for yourself and get internal tas record: http://kopasite.net/up/5x932fdqhtak6a8/14be1723.dat
Shouldn't be hard to improve just basic vroming in rec while searching for u17 moves.
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