Why aren't you making battles?

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kuchitsu
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Why aren't you making battles?

Post by kuchitsu »

I'm puzzled by situations where you have 15+ players active in a battle but NOTHING in queue. Who do you think is supposed to keep this scene alive? Imagine if instead of playing a single 20 minute battle every one of these people opened the editor and made something. You would get a whole evening of battles out of nowhere. But that doesn't happen, and instead Reefer, Ramone, and Hosp have to create like half of the battles. This is unacceptable. It is very easy to make a simple enjoyable lev. Just put some vertices real quick, test to see if you can reach the flower without getting bored, and there you go. You don't have to put pictures or do anything fancy if you don't want. If you don't have any ideas you can just copy the levels you like. So what is the problem? Do you think you're absolutely talentless? Do you need our help, do you want us to teach you how to design levels? Why aren't you making battles?
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by pawq »

Of course I'm speaking just for myself, but this may cover a proportion of the community:

Most often one of these:
1. Because I'm playing internals
2. Because I'm cruising pipes
3. Because I'm hoyling some other external pack or some random external level

One of these is actually true most of the time. The other times, believe it or not, I often simply forget about levelmaking. I'll try to remember more often!
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Hosp »

best thread 2017.
I feel the same, it's very simple make lev yet some just seem to sit and do nothing and just yell 'NEW!' until one is started :p
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Grace »

Can't be assed.
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Zweq »

Imo don't start random crap, the biggest killer of the battle scene is those flat tracks, tunnels, pipes and etC that you have played 100 times already.

Put highest effort on creativeness. Treat playability and funnynes as secondary maters.

Creativeness inspires people and stimulates the cretivica abalicus cortex in brain.

Ask yourself the question "have i seen this lev before" before pressing the start battle button. It's time to rewire our brains.
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by bene »

I don't make now because editor unworks it starts working and unworking randomly depending on graphics card drivers updates

Also 99.999999% of my levels are seen before and 100% the smae
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Fejm »

When it comes to making balles I totally agree with Zweq. Usually i put effort on creativity simply cause i like when some mans can really appreciate it (like Ram, Zero, Finman etc.) sayin' it's straightforward !lev 10. And because it's rly fun to watch mans trying some different styles, routes, moves that i didnt even think about.

But... when I play I also like these "playability levs" from kuchi and sla for example. Dunno what think about these simple flat tracks, tunnels (i like rfrs!), pipes levs. Better than nothing i guess?
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by skint0r »

wander, I feel like battles are never-ending, and problem is mainly too few players, not too few battles. like orka make lev when most of day maybe 2-4 players would play your lev. there is like constant source of battles all the time, and they don't really feel special anymore. compared to old pre-eol days when you looked forward to mopobattle etc. maybe it's combination of fewer players and things and not just the constant stream of quick/poor lev constantly battled, duno. give more blayers, and mebe give better levs. maybe ignore my also.
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by zebra »

Good question, kuchitsu! I have some _excuses_ why I don't make levels anymore:
- first (like 10 years ago) I wanted to cut out my elma time. I was playing too much. So I quitted level making and tried to play minimum amount of time.
- then I bought a new laptop. Elma internal editor didn't work at all. And because I'm not used to make levels with external editors, I didn't bother to make any levels.
- then I got some real life stuff. Got married etc. So not much time to play elma.
- when I have some time for elma, I don't usually have much time, I usually have 10 minutes or so. So there is no time to make a level, add it to queue and spy it.
- After a work day I'm usually quite tired and don't feel very creative. I just want to cruise some old levels or try the ongoing battle. Or do something else than sit in front of the computer.
- I have some kind of quality standards... some kind of barrier which stops me from starting the editor casually. And now when I have had such a long break, it's harder and harder to start the editor.
- I am a bit ambitious about level making and want to make bigger "projects". So I feel that if I start to make some levels, I should make plenty of them, not just one. Otherwise I don't remember making the level at all and it's all kind of wasted time.
- I have already created so many levels that I doubt that do I still have some new ideas for new levels.

But really all of these are excuses. Maybe I should just start the editor :)
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by pawq »

zebra wrote:Maybe I should just start the editor :)
Please do! I'd love to play a zebra battle every now and then! I'd maybe even stop playing the internals to do that ;)
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Kopaka »

Haruhi wrote:Can't be assed.
I think this is a big factor. For me and I'm guessing for many others, opening the editor feels like effort, more effort than just playing a battle or random level. It really doesn't need to be though, you can basically close your eyes, click around the editor, fix topology errors and have a playable battle level. So I guess it's more about getting used to making levels regulary, so it feels natural and not like a chore.
skint0r wrote:wander, I feel like battles are never-ending, and problem is mainly too few players, not too few battles. like orka make lev when most of day maybe 2-4 players would play your lev.
I think though, that lack of battles also causes fewer players. If someone goes online but there's no battle on they may quit again quickly, so there's not a lot of people online and when a battle does start it doesn't get many players. If there were battles on most of the time, people might be more likely to stick around a bit longer. If you look at amount of battles it has fallen a bit compared to just a few years ago. Last 365 days we had 12122 battles, same period five years ago we had 18788 battles.


Well what can we do. If you consider just primetime, say 16:00 to midnight, that's 8 hours, which is 24 battles of 18 minutes each, say 36 on weekends. That's 816 required for a month. Last month a total of 200 people played at least one battle. So everyone needs to make just 4 levels a month to keep that up. That's one a week, let that be your goal.
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Zero »

pawq wrote:
zebra wrote:Maybe I should just start the editor :)
Please do! I'd love to play a zebra battle every now and then! I'd maybe even stop playing the internals to do that ;)
Yeah.
You can just make it a casual pack. Low visuals if feel like it :) You also have such a good eye for flowy tricks that even the levels that are are slightly rushed are still very exciting.
Just do it my old friend :beer:
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by jblaze »

Kopaka wrote: That's one a week, let that be your goal.
well, that should be motivating enough for everybody. good statictical fact
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by ribot »

it would be possible to make a !new command that starts auto generated battle... i guess it's a controversial idea, but it also means there can always be battle as long as one or more players write !new in chat.

the technology for this is almost there, just need domi or kopaka to make it possible to add battles programatically
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by ile »

League takes all my time gg
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by skint0r »

it's pos to add battles through domi's api thing, too lazy find but if search it cane find prob
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by danitah »

ribot wrote:it would be possible to make a !new command that starts auto generated battle... i guess it's a controversial idea, but it also means there can always be battle as long as one or more players write !new in chat.

the technology for this is almost there, just need domi or kopaka to make it possible to add battles programatically
Instead of this I'd like to see some kind of queue system where you can submit levels outside of the default queue.

It would work something like this maybe:
- Some kind of simple site where you upload .lev and set battletime (maybe max 20min or something for this system).
- Should only be for normal battle mode.
- Should be linked to your EOL user somehow so battles get linked to your correct nick.
- When someone types !new in eol chat and there has been at least 5 minutes since last battle ended (OR 2 minutes since the last auto-battle ended), the next battle in queue is automatically started.
- Require two different people to say !new within 5minutes to make sure there are enough players.

I'd use this a lot, as I can easily create like 10-20 decent battles in an hour but I'd have to be online all day to start them.
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Grace »

Went in EOL the other day. Someone asked me make balle - I thought of this thread so I decided "Why not?".

Half hour later I finish making lev and go to start balle. Balle start got cucked by this hour long monstrosity with looks like it was made in 30 seconds, but thankfully someone aborted and we requeued that one afterwards. Start my lev, 5-6 people played it seriously and 2-3 more had a go and gave up after 2-3 mins because it wasn't easy flat normal lev. I thought about making another lev and decided "Why bother?".

Unless I'm online and there's large numbers of people battling, it's just a waste of my time to make battles.
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by John »

danitahs idea is a good one. The limit of only being able to queue one level at a time is a bit of an annoyance if you happen to feel creative with the editor. We could have a pool of added levels and maybe even start battles from the pool in a random order. If so, a limit of maybe 5 added levels from the same designer is still needed otherwise there might be 2000 levels from one designer and that 1 level from a less active designer is finally started in the year 2032.

Maybe designers could categorize their levels and tag them with descriptive keywords so when, for example, three people write "!new pipe" a random pipe is started. Or if a designer spent 5hrs making an awesome level with pictures and everything, a cup worthy level, maybe he should be able to demand a minimum amount of players for his battle. Maybe it could require 10 people writing !new within a set period of time for the level to even be considered for battle by the battle start shuffler.

If designers could demand certain amount of players for each level (in proportion to effort from designer) then there wouldn't be the situation of "why bother?" because each level would start during the right circumstances anyway. The designer might not be able to spy it though, if the criterias aren't met for 4 days or even a month. Recs can always be viewed later and it's for the greater good, an active battle scene! :)
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by pawq »

John wrote:ideas ideas ideas
This sounds amazing! But needs someone with enough skill to actually bother to make it :(
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Lousku »

Haruhi wrote:this hour long monstrosity with looks like it was made in 30 seconds
...and turned out moar popular than your lovinkly crafted super lev. Some people are nat very good designers and could find it less of a waste of time mayking a few rough levs instead of one elaborate one.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by danitah »

John wrote:danitahs idea is a good one. The limit of only being able to queue one level at a time is a bit of an annoyance if you happen to feel creative with the editor. We could have a pool of added levels and maybe even start battles from the pool in a random order. If so, a limit of maybe 5 added levels from the same designer is still needed otherwise there might be 2000 levels from one designer and that 1 level from a less active designer is finally started in the year 2032.

Maybe designers could categorize their levels and tag them with descriptive keywords so when, for example, three people write "!new pipe" a random pipe is started. Or if a designer spent 5hrs making an awesome level with pictures and everything, a cup worthy level, maybe he should be able to demand a minimum amount of players for his battle. Maybe it could require 10 people writing !new within a set period of time for the level to even be considered for battle by the battle start shuffler.

If designers could demand certain amount of players for each level (in proportion to effort from designer) then there wouldn't be the situation of "why bother?" because each level would start during the right circumstances anyway. The designer might not be able to spy it though, if the criterias aren't met for 4 days or even a month. Recs can always be viewed later and it's for the greater good, an active battle scene! :)
I don't like most of these suggestions, let's just keep it simple imo. I'd only use this for battles I don't want to spy anyway, and I assume others would do the same, so it will just be annoying to have the system wait to see how many players there are before choosing a lev. If I make a cup-worthy lev, I'll just start it normally when I can spy it.

The problem with one designer having 1000 levels and someone putting one lev and having a low chance can easily be fixed just by having the system choose a random designer instead of lev, so the guy with one lev has a 50%. Actually levs should probably be chosen in the order they are put and not random so we don't get a bunch of holes in the lev-numbering and it's easier to find the levs in game.

Tags: I wouldn't bother putting tags etc, duno if we could get big enough pools to make it worthwhile. I imagine it would end up with people always checking if there's a hoyla available, or a pipe available, or whatever type when there isn't one.

For me the problem this system would fix is sometimes I get in the mood to just make a bunch of quick battles, I might make maybe 5-10 levs that I have to wait to start and I lose interest in making more because now I already have to be around for 2 hours to actively put my levs in queue.
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by BlaZtek »

I'd rather have ppl make good leves than shit.
I guess all the live complaining about levels in EOL ain't
much encurraging. But come on. Did you even try to make a ok lev? 8O

The problem imo is that only few mans are interested in making levels.
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by jblaze »

i dont understand how can anyone get discouraged by criticism.
its so easy to see that theres almost no recipe to make "good levs"
sometimes you make 10s clickclick and ppl go "wow what a fun hoyla"
sometimes you make 10s clickclick and ppl go "omg boring alo-alo shitlev"
sometimes you make complex 1+min and ppl go "sick styles, sick routes, gaa lev"
sometimes you make complex 1+min and ppl go "horror lev omg annoying apple" (too nab to make it, hmm lets blame teh apple)

it depends on who is playing and on general randomness that comes within move-seeking process. ppl rate bad when they cant find working moves. their fault. theres no rule, just do your thing and stop taking stuff deep into your heart

i remember situation from a week ago when ramone dissed blazteks levs so much that he quit eol. lol. ramone is the maestro of levmaking with amazing ease at making polygons but at the same time he is the worst and most random level-rater in history. how could you care? love you both <3
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by BlaZtek »

First of all:

* I x2
* It's
* . x10
* Sometimes x4
* It
* People
* Their
* There's
* Ramone
* Blaztek
* Ramone
* ,
* How
* Love

I got totally exhausted to read all of that.
But I love you too.

Ramone can make me flip, he is one of few that reach that nerve in me. LOL. :lol:

With practice comes ease, and don't be afraid to delete the level you made and try again.
Sometimes there's no hope for the polygons. :beer:

If you still are unsure, take some inspiration from good levels you have been playing. But no copy allowed. :wink:
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Madness »

BlaZtek wrote:First of all:

* I x2
* It's
* . x10
* Sometimes x4
* It
* People
* Their
* There's
* Ramone
* Blaztek
* Ramone
* ,
* How
* Love

I got totally exhausted to read all of that.
But I love you too.

Ramone can make me flip, he is one of few that reach that nerve in me. LOL. :lol:

With practice comes ease, and don't be afraid to delete the level you made and try again.
Sometimes there's no hope for the polygons. :beer:

If you still are unsure, take some inspiration from good levels you have been playing. But no copy allowed. :wink:
* exhausted by reading all of that (incorrect preposition)
* one of the few (missing article)
* that reaches (third-person singular form)
* LOL. (smile is redundant here)
* With practice comes ease, so don't be afraid (wrong conjunction)
* If you are still unsure (improper word order)
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by anpdad »

Even the simplest boring chrislev takes me 15-20min to create, duno how faster.
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Boomer »

Yeah, that was embarrassing BlaZtek..
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by pawq »

Madness wrote:* that reaches (third-person singular form)
Actually no, "the few" is the subject here ;)

But overall agreed, pretty poor grammar for a grammar nazi Blaztek :D
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by BlaZtek »

No, Boomer. I like being corrected with my grammar. It only makes me better.
Thank you, Madness. :!:

On topic:
What do you consider a Chrislev, anpdad?
Standard flats?

Edit: On a side note... It seems you guys are quite good in English grammar, so why not practice it completely?
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Hosp »

wtf is wrong with my lev, such disrespect, that level is a good lev with fun stylefinding, and it took like 5min probably not 30s to make, I was the one who aborted and started AFTER your lev since apparently the queue spot was yours because you had announced you were making a lev..
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Lousku »

BlaZtek wrote:Edit: On a side note... It seems you guys are quite good in English grammar, so why not practice it completely?
Why should we if everyting is anderstood? Complaning about non-standard language when theer was no misunderstanding just comes off as snoby.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Madness »

pawq wrote:
Madness wrote:* that reaches (third-person singular form)
Actually no, "the few" is the subject here ;)
You're right, that one was correct as it was.
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by Grace »

Hosp wrote:wtf is wrong with my lev, such disrespect, that level is a good lev with fun stylefinding, and it took like 5min probably not 30s to make, I was the one who aborted and started AFTER your lev since apparently the queue spot was yours because you had announced you were making a lev..
Your lev was fine. It wasn't !lev 10, but it wasn't !lev 2 either. I am only justifying why I hev no desire to make balles (as per this topic). Why would I make the types of levels I want to make, when someone can make 8-10 levels in the same timeframe that will all be received in the same way anyway. Levelmaking creativity is where the enjoyment comes from for me - I don't like to clickclick for 2 mins and place sorta ok polys and just hit start.
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by bene »

I stopped making battles because haruhi and hosp fight too much about who is allowed to start so i get confused if i am allowed to start
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Re: Why aren't you making battles?

Post by BlaZtek »

DanielJ made a great pipe balle the other day. He also makes fun balle levels overall. Good job.
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