Replays sharing

Look for replays and levels and ask people's times.

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milagros
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by milagros »

Labs wrote: 22 Jul 2019, 15:31 Please show some nice internal recs, maybe computer can show us new styles :D
I guess it works only where you can locally create the gradient
for example "get as far left / right / up / down) as possible"
so no other internal than 02 can be done that way

also I guess it needs to be trained for each level separately (so it actually doesn't really observe stuff)

to do it properly on arbitrary internal level, you need to have sufficient computing power to achieve the goal "by chance", which is not really feasible unless you have some millions to waste
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Stini »

milagros wrote: 22 Jul 2019, 16:04
Labs wrote: 22 Jul 2019, 15:31 Please show some nice internal recs, maybe computer can show us new styles :D
I guess it works only where you can locally create the gradient
for example "get as far left / right / up / down) as possible"
so no other internal than 02 can be done that way

also I guess it needs to be trained for each level separately (so it actually doesn't really observe stuff)

to do it properly on arbitrary internal level, you need to have sufficient computing power to achieve the goal "by chance", which is not really feasible unless you have some millions to waste
Yeah, I have a very naive reward function at the moment, which essentially just gives some reward for getting closer to the next closest apple/flower as quickly as possible, so most of the internals are not feasible at the moment. It's really challenging to make it explore properly and come up with new and different styles. The model is indeed trained for each level separately right now, but I will try to make a more general AI in the future, which could play multiple and more challenging levels.

I did some tries on other internals as well, but the results weren't good enough for the video:

Warm up, 15.24
Islands in the Sky, 24.91
Uphill Battle, 25.96 - kinda interesting pop style here
Haircut, unfinished - I had a bug in my code, so it stops too early, but looks like ez finish
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Grace »

Pretty tight haircut stylefinding.

I'm curious on the logic behind the reward function. In - for example the haircut rec - surely by default the closest rewardable object is the flower. Is there some caveat that flower is unrewarding until all apples given?
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Stini »

Yes it tries to collect all the apples first.
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Labs »

Next table spef makes wr on uphill battle :D Nics recs!
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by milagros »

Stini wrote: 22 Jul 2019, 16:54 Yeah, I have a very naive reward function at the moment, which essentially just gives some reward for getting closer to the next closest apple/flower as quickly as possible
i wanted to do something similar at some point and concluded the only way to get really good results is to use a reward function depending on how close you are to a future state in a SL rec (you try to be where SL rec was 0.1s in the future, once achieved, 0.2s in the future etc)
all plans were dropped when I realized that all recs would be optimal if you over-use the bug bounces
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Hosp »

that's the best 05 rec i hev ever seen
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by ArZeNiK »

actually i think all these AI recs are sik
who know where bot will be in future. maybe bot is first 33tt
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Lukazz »

Insanely interesting project! Nice 05 style!
TT: 36:59:53 || Avg TT: 38:09:65
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Petrenuk »

Stini wrote: 22 Jul 2019, 16:54
Yeah, I have a very naive reward function at the moment, which essentially just gives some reward for getting closer to the next closest apple/flower as quickly as possible, so most of the internals are not feasible at the moment. It's really challenging to make it explore properly and come up with new and different styles. The model is indeed trained for each level separately right now, but I will try to make a more general AI in the future, which could play multiple and more challenging levels.
Lol I was waiting for someone to try it out! Very interesting indeed!
Stini, how do you interact with the game? Is there a way to run it much faster than realtime (like in most reinforcement learning projects?) How do you grab the screen pixels if at all? (or is it training from low-dimensional representation?)
If you have access to Elma source code this should be doable, otherwise, I'm curious.
Also, do you run more than one copy of Elma at a time during training?

Other questions: what RL framework do you use? Is it something open-source like OpenAI Baselines, or is this your own implementation?
What kind of RL algorithm do you use? A2C, PPO, DQN?

Having worked with RL myself, I can say this is an extremely challenging problem for contemporary exploration algorithms. For non-trivial levels it basically involves implicit traveling salesman problem.
I think it might be possible to make progress on harder levels by combining some kind of search over apple sequences and routes with RL to produce the actual actions for every route. This might even have some style finding potential on shorter levels.
Totally agree with Milagros though, if bug bounce is patched this is even more interesting!

Also, very surprised at how human the recs look! Totally looks like a rec from an amateur player who never saw a professional rec.
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Stini »

Petrenuk wrote: 31 Jul 2019, 02:10 Stini, how do you interact with the game? Is there a way to run it much faster than realtime (like in most reinforcement learning projects?) How do you grab the screen pixels if at all? (or is it training from low-dimensional representation?)
If you have access to Elma source code this should be doable, otherwise, I'm curious.
Also, do you run more than one copy of Elma at a time during training?
Smibu was kind enough to give me access to EOL2 code, so I used its physics code to build an elma simulator, which is about 1000x faster than real time. Currently I only simulate the physics and I don't do any frame rendering, so I don't use any pixel values in my algorithm. I just use some of the internal state of the simulator as features (coordinates, velocities, rotation speeds etc.). And yeah it's quite trivial to run multiple simulators concurrently.
Petrenuk wrote: 31 Jul 2019, 02:10 Other questions: what RL framework do you use? Is it something open-source like OpenAI Baselines, or is this your own implementation?
What kind of RL algorithm do you use? A2C, PPO, DQN?
I wanted to try something simple first, so I just picked cross-entropy method since it's very easy to implement. Turned out it works quite well. I was then asked later to make some runs for the video, but due to limited time I just kept using and improving my implementation of CEM rather than taking a risk to try something more sophisticated.

I have actually implemented OpenAI Gym wrapper for the simulator and I did try some of the OpenAI Baselines algorithms, such as PPO and DQN. However, I wasn't able to get these working as well as my own implementation of CEM. I could maybe take a closer look at these again, but I'm more interested in trying model-based methods, which I also use at work a lot so I'm more familiar with them and I also think they might work quite well.
Petrenuk wrote: 31 Jul 2019, 02:10 Having worked with RL myself, I can say this is an extremely challenging problem for contemporary exploration algorithms. For non-trivial levels it basically involves implicit traveling salesman problem.
I think it might be possible to make progress on harder levels by combining some kind of search over apple sequences and routes with RL to produce the actual actions for every route. This might even have some style finding potential on shorter levels.
Totally agree with Milagros though, if bug bounce is patched this is even more interesting!
Yeah I have been also thinking about some kind of search and other ideas for style finding and exploration. For example, if you look at the recent Go-Explore paper by Uber to solve Montezuma's revenge, it's essentially just a simple search from "most promising" states with lower-dimensional state representation and stuff. However, I think the state-space might be too complex for this kind of approach to work well in elma.

I will probably try using recs for better style finding. I would like to use recs for training the AI in general, but you could also try learning which apple a human would collect next for example. Maybe you could then build some kind of a hierarchical model using this or something.
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Petrenuk »

Stini, this is awesome!
I do know the Go-Explore paper and indeed there might be some potential in using it for style-finding. But as you said, Elma state space is a lot more complex than Montezumas, because things like velocity and rotation matter a lot. Even if you discretize everything, it might be either too coarse to find anything useful or too huge to store and process.

Maybe initially something like hand-crafted route defined by a set of waypoints could work. Similar to placing a bunch of apples along the "desired" path through the level. And then let the RL algorithm find the low-level actions to drive through waypoints.

Wild thought:
given the fact that you have access to all physic calculations, you can actually use differentiable physics :D
https://arxiv.org/abs/1905.10706
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Kazan »

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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Zweq »

gz under 35tt or smth
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Cfilorvy »

Gz with u35, Kazan (and soon WR) :beer:
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Kazan »

http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1598/show?27K3172sl
finished with this style in train lev, it's actually not so hard. ez improve wr by 0.5
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by AndrY »

Kazan wrote: 30 Nov 2019, 15:50 http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1598/show?27K3172sl
finished with this style in train lev, it's actually not so hard. ez improve wr by 0.5
ez wr ofc why shared?)
or this style is known? anyway cool
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Jazka »

Nice to see that mopolauta is still active, haven't played the game in 10 years or so. I uploaded my Playing level records from 2009 here http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1769/sho ... e=PLXT16Jz
http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1690/sho ... e=PLKI03Jz
http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1756/sho ... e=PLXT03Jz

Please go and make some new records on those short hoyla levels, would be nice to see how much they can still be improved. Some old records can be found from here http://zebra.mbnet.fi/playing_table_032.html
TT: 38.59.35 (20.)
Avg TT: 39.56.193 (12.)
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by ArZeNiK »

hi im arzenik :>
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by pawq »

Yeah, nice recs for 2009! One is still a WR even ;)

Welcome back! :)
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Zweq »

Jazka wrote: 3 Dec 2019, 21:57 Nice to see that mopolauta is still active, haven't played the game in 10 years or so. I uploaded my Playing level records from 2009 here http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1769/sho ... e=PLXT16Jz
http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1690/sho ... e=PLKI03Jz
http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1756/sho ... e=PLXT03Jz

Please go and make some new records on those short hoyla levels, would be nice to see how much they can still be improved. Some old records can be found from here http://zebra.mbnet.fi/playing_table_032.html
did you use a script for uploading all those recs? If not, I'm very sorry, I'm the one responsible for that abomination of a file upload that doesn't support uploading multiple recs :sob:
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Jazka »

pawq wrote: 4 Dec 2019, 10:45 Yeah, nice recs for 2009! One is still a WR even ;)

Welcome back! :)
Oh, only one of them? Which one? Where are the official records, I guess not here then? https://elmaonline.net/statistics/levelpack/PL
TT: 38.59.35 (20.)
Avg TT: 39.56.193 (12.)
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Jazka »

Zweq wrote: 4 Dec 2019, 11:35
Jazka wrote: 3 Dec 2019, 21:57 Nice to see that mopolauta is still active, haven't played the game in 10 years or so. I uploaded my Playing level records from 2009 here http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1769/sho ... e=PLXT16Jz
http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1690/sho ... e=PLKI03Jz
http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1756/sho ... e=PLXT03Jz

Please go and make some new records on those short hoyla levels, would be nice to see how much they can still be improved. Some old records can be found from here http://zebra.mbnet.fi/playing_table_032.html
did you use a script for uploading all those recs? If not, I'm very sorry, I'm the one responsible for that abomination of a file upload that doesn't support uploading multiple recs :sob:
Didn't use any script but it wasn't that bad :) It was nice to see the replays after uploading them, as I don't have a working version of the game at the moment. I'm a bit surprised of how good some of those replays looked like. Now I also remember that one of the reasons for quitting the game was a change of computer, after which I couldn't press multiple keys at the same time. Is it keyboard's fault or is there some settings that could be changed to allow that?
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by danitah »

Usually its because of keyboard, and usually you can fix it by using different keys
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Zweq »

those playing levs seem to be missing at least 2 tricks i can instantly think of
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by zebra »

Welcome back, Jazka, and thank you for sharing the recs!
The playing levels were made 10 years ago so obviously there are some newer tricks missing. Which 2 tricks are you thinking of, Zweq?
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by pawq »

Jazka wrote: 4 Dec 2019, 12:10 Oh, only one of them? Which one? Where are the official records, I guess not here then? https://elmaonline.net/statistics/levelpack/PL
Yeah, exactly that link :P you're beaten in both XT levs (by 3s in XT03), but your KI03 still seems to be best
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Jazka »

pawq wrote: 6 Dec 2019, 13:01
Jazka wrote: 4 Dec 2019, 12:10 Oh, only one of them? Which one? Where are the official records, I guess not here then? https://elmaonline.net/statistics/levelpack/PL
Yeah, exactly that link :P you're beaten in both XT levs (by 3s in XT03), but your KI03 still seems to be best
Oh I guess you only watched those three replays that I linked as an example. I also uploaded dozens of other replays and many of them seem to be WRs if compared to elmaonline site :wink:
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by pawq »

pips065 - 50.21

50.21: http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1821/show?pips065p5021
50.29: http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1822/show?pips065p5029

Two oke rides within 5min, merging those would give some 48.mid, an oke clean run with this style should be some 46-47 I think. The best level I've played in a long time, I'm literally sad that it's not a WCup level. Haven't even done proper stylefinding yet :D

edit:
48.94: http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1823/show?pips065p4894
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by pawq »

47.36: http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/1824/show?pips065p4736

Made in the first run after I noticed that zero did 48.20 :D ty for hoyling power

Maybe a couple of imperfect spots, but a pretty clean run, would be hard to 46 or lower for my without new styles, and dunno if orka do stylefinding. But this style/route was super max fun to play, ty barryp <3
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Zero »

Rank #1 battler and the champion of BOSS cup :gaa:
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Grace »

Very pretty rec imo :beer: <- Non-alco
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Re: Replays sharing

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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Mira »

Ahoj,

classic afterbattle playing
it's always fun to complete challenge for some u20 or any "uxx" time :)
it's a little less fun to get... not once, but twice a time exactly of 20:00
it's this much :beer: satisfying to finally reach the goal
rec here:
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by pawq »

Me after 6sec: is this rec 20s of driving straight 🤨

Me after 20sec: 🤯
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Zero »

Lit rec
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by ArZeNiK »

always so satisfying to see smooth spins like this omg
well done
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Re: Replays sharing

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Rank #1 battler and the champion of BOSS cup :gaa:
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by sierra »

Did chainpi4 in 27 mins. (I might have used TAS.) Any mans has better? http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/2194/show?chainpi4ok
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by zebra »

Thank you for sharing chainpi4 rec, sierra. It was great :)

About the chainpi4 level: I had completely forgotten that I had made my own part to it! Didn't remember any of those polygons and pipes I had made... but they looked like me so probably I have made them :D
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by ArZeNiK »

Some of you early mans (especially hungarians) might remember mPack (pack by team MoSzAT) from around 2003-2004. I took one of the levs and invented a modern style for it, shaving off about 5 seconds from the previous (known) record by KD. It looks kinda cool imo, so decided to share it: http://recs.zamppe.com/replays/2246/show?mp07arz
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by iCS »

what's best way to share across lev replays? youtube?
https://youtu.be/aSqFOVOSto0
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by ArZeNiK »

iCS wrote: 16 Jun 2020, 08:13 what's best way to share across lev replays? youtube?
https://youtu.be/aSqFOVOSto0
sik rec! probably since unconvertable to elma
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by adi »

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1J3Tg0h ... sp=sharing

My 308 TL pipe recs. Some 0ikukas levels are still unfinished but maybe I'll try to finish them in the future (except 0ikukas6). I don't remember, which were the hardest pipes but probably at least 0ntelo35, 0ntelo37, 0melet24, 0lympic$ and 0pen302
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Bjenn »

Some recs I don't think are shared before.

recs.zamppe links
31B10972 (new style/move)
28B4736
03B1748

Won't share my Tunnel Terror though =)
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Bjenn »

16B12307 decent ending imo =) style from Zweq SL.
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by umiz »

Very nice recs Bjenn! Thanks for sharing!
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Madness »

Nice recs Bjenn, I am proud of you.
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by Bjenn »

Thanks you two!

Here is some style from 2011 that I tried in the start in Fruit in the Den 36stilbj
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Re: Replays sharing

Post by ArZeNiK »

continuing what's apparently now a tradition, i'll share all my 38tt recs in a zip here, maybe someone will find them useful
http://kopasite.net/up/1/arze38tt.rar
includes:
- 2 leg times
- 7 wc times
- 36 pro times
- 9 good times
earliest rec hang tight 25:32 2018/03/24, latest rec bowling 58:79 2020/07/09
total time 38:59:95
enjoy
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