New Across Internal Times

Look for replays and levels and ask people's times.

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by barbapappa » 7 Nov 2021, 21:11

Zweq wrote:
7 Nov 2021, 20:30
Unpopular opinion, but I think it adds to the unpredictable charm to the game that Elma didn't have, like vertexes slowing you down sometimes here n there or kuski-ansikte being positioned differently.

...

Would it still be Across if someone patched away the wheel-snapping too?
I don't think it's an unpopular opinion at all. I just think it'd save everyones time if someone with reverse-engineering brain spent 15 mins of their time to check out if it's even worth trying all kinds of ahk scripts, dosbox tricks and whatnot to achieve 100% consistency alovolt. If it cannot be achieved, then it is what it is and the game should be left like that, I guess.

"Elmafying" across-physics is a big nono imo.
Couldn't have said it better myself. I draw the the line at alovolt too. Next step, where do we find this big brain and can we trust the solution won't be secluded to some inner circle like alovolt was back then? Guess we can't 1001% but just throwing it out on the table. Whatev outcome I think it could re-spark a table that has been criminally ignored for way too long. I'd throw some SEKs at such project if needed to employ random lazy milagros noggin'. It was fun taking some quick across WR's back then, but with no competition or general interest it was akin to jerkin your gherkin in some closet - satisfying, but lonely :(

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Hosp » 7 Nov 2021, 23:02

bacross when
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by barbapappa » 8 Nov 2021, 01:16

Btw looked at mrickx tube vid of headbanger and had this lying around when trying last year take the WR. I always sucked at headbanger after the pipe so gave up on that pretty quick, but of all runs in any level this method was most reliable for me at least in Across.

https://filebin.net/9mor1xuwzfq0kibw/26teh.REC

Most likely this is poopy rec but my way of consistent first half of headbanger:
1. Worth making the first alo in start since nothing to lose (nothing new here).
2. Flying over most ground after to avoid vertexy stikkyness here n there (just old elma style, but across enables bouncy stronk frog leaps).
2. Shameful disclaimer: never done the pipe the ghetto norm way whole my life in Elma or Across so preferred using a second Alo to push of the roof (sometimes adding an itsy-bitsy front wheel brake if overshooting it) but once you get hang man of that it adds speed in the end or something downwards.

Touching down after pipe at 17,high usually; mrickx rec 19,high.. insert elma abacus = ez WR with 1 sec to spare.
Thoughts? Havn't played internals for well over a decade, so if i'm missing something let me know.

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Grace » 8 Nov 2021, 05:28

am looking forward to next across WR table.

Anyone going to put up some good times?
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 8 Nov 2021, 05:48

sick bartek rec on 26, didnt realise mrickx was so far behind lol, i just tried the lev yday too got some 51
but i sadly i believe wr table will have to be frozen, because theres a dosbox build released in early 2010s with savestate function (undetectable in recs) so basically any wrs past that are considered illegitimate :/
sent a note to abu but if someone had some anti cheat idea it would be great to hear. seems impsy because of DOS emulation and code, and elma owner daniel said orka work on steam integration (dosbox version in steam release doesnt have this feature)
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by barbapappa » 8 Nov 2021, 20:34

doublepost*
Last edited by barbapappa on 8 Nov 2021, 20:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by barbapappa » 8 Nov 2021, 20:35

btw who has fastest Flat Track as of now? Arz you beated it?

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 8 Nov 2021, 21:18

barbapappa wrote:
8 Nov 2021, 20:35
btw who has fastest Flat Track as of now? Arz you beated it?
mrickx hasnt beated and me neither, duno about others. i was never good at teh old wrstyle sadly, havent got under 17 in elma. and the wheel blocking thing kinda looks like it makes long jump impsy, i dont think i ever really tested it though. maybe one day i will try
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by barbapappa » 8 Nov 2021, 21:40

Given up on long jump.

So stitched together something from the old times before long jump became the norm.
My 17,55 WR includes 2 alovolts sadly in succession, but also doable with just 1 alovolt only for lazy ppl (just drove and tested today.)

https://filebin.net/qctetq742nw2jlv0
(17,55 WR + 17,57 1 alo only variant)

Dunno which best, my middle sucks with bad push, airtime suckage no grip at last hill and bad flower angle.
With this ez 17 even after 3 beers. I wont do more on it since vertexes drive me crazy on this one.

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 8 Nov 2021, 22:06

sexy, will go for wr later mb
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Labs » 9 Nov 2021, 02:31

Imo new wr's acceptable only if driven on twitch stream as noone is gonna make sl-checker sadly.
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Grace » 9 Nov 2021, 06:03

We'll have to go for manual verification of times via video proof nowadays (preferably streamed),
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 9 Nov 2021, 08:27

played around a bit with "saveload" yesterday and found some nice long haul end style at last, 35:xx and imo doable live (but i wont waste my energy until good way to prove wr legitimacy is agreed upon by abul)
also beated some other wrs but this is the only notable one tbh. you cant hoyl short levs with this "saveload" anyway because of debilitating input lag, but maybe it can be used to (re)invent some sick styles
06ARZSL.REC
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by barbapappa » 9 Nov 2021, 11:02

ArZeNiK wrote:
9 Nov 2021, 08:27
played around a bit with "saveload" yesterday and found some nice long haul end style at last, 35:xx and imo doable live (but i wont waste my energy until good way to prove wr legitimacy is agreed upon by abul)
also beated some other wrs but this is the only notable one tbh. you cant hoyl short levs with this "saveload" anyway because of debilitating input lag, but maybe it can be used to (re)invent some sick styles

06ARZSL.REC
Is this 'savleload' available for others to tinker with? Would be good relevancy placeholder having some reason to goof around in Across until "the final solution" is implemented.

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 9 Nov 2021, 11:44

barbapappa wrote:
9 Nov 2021, 11:02
Is this 'savleload' available for others to tinker with? Would be good relevancy placeholder having some reason to goof around in Across until "the final solution" is implemented.
it's a build of dosbox called "SVN Daum". more info here https://www.dosbox.com/wiki/SVN_Builds
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by barbapappa » 9 Nov 2021, 11:46

ArZeNiK wrote:
9 Nov 2021, 11:44
barbapappa wrote:
9 Nov 2021, 11:02
Is this 'savleload' available for others to tinker with? Would be good relevancy placeholder having some reason to goof around in Across until "the final solution" is implemented.
it's a build of dosbox called "SVN Daum". more info here https://www.dosbox.com/wiki/SVN_Builds
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Abula » 16 Nov 2021, 22:10

Maybe you can film yourself while playing? Use a fish lense so we can see both the fingers and the screen? Replay is also needed.

Maybe this rule applies only to new world records because everything else is ~impsy to fix. mrickx's video was coal. Grats!
40:02,71 (104.) | WCup4: 8. | 3x WR | 3x GAA | 9x FEM | KOM | Article | UPLOAD

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Labs » 16 Nov 2021, 22:43

Abula wrote:
16 Nov 2021, 22:10
Maybe you can film yourself while playing? Use a fish lense so we can see both the fingers and the screen? Replay is also needed.

Maybe this rule applies only to new world records because everything else is ~impsy to fix. mrickx's video was coal. Grats!
Imo is fine to let current wrs stay and need some stream for new ones, but if u require my fingers visible also then i guess i go buy a webcam on black friday :D
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 16 Nov 2021, 23:16

Abula wrote:
16 Nov 2021, 22:10
Maybe this rule applies only to new world records because everything else is ~impsy to fix.
savestate build was made well after 2004, so only tables past #419 will have to be nuked if you decide to take that decision
btw, offtopic...you know anyone that has some tables before #331?
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Abula » 3 Dec 2021, 19:04

I moved the old WR table discussion to the right topic: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9642
40:02,71 (104.) | WCup4: 8. | 3x WR | 3x GAA | 9x FEM | KOM | Article | UPLOAD

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 9 Jan 2022, 01:56

Wow, so many good replays and styles Labs, Arz, and barbapappa!
Everyone in this thread has inspired me to get back into Across more, even if the world record table is frozen :beer:

I would like to come back and respond to everyone who posted awesome stuff here individually, because each of you has contributed something impressive to the game and thread. I will be back soon with a long story and a bunch of replays for the hoylathon I have been on. Tried to warm back up with four or five levels, but I have been completely stuck on one for the last three or four weeks.

Finally drove my first [unofficial] wr in almost 20 years (assuming mrickx hasn't lowered his time again) two or three weeks ago, but I still don't have the time that I want yet.

https://imgur.com/a/5KNrvzm

It has been a journey of triumph and failure. I got close to my best time lucky AF very early, and I thought for sure that I was going to get 30:XX almost immediately. What happened instead is that I have grinded this level 2-3+ hours a day for three-four weeks, broken Nikke's old record 250+ times [loose guess], gotten 31:XX over 100 times, and STILL have only been able to scrape by my original time that day of 31:11 four or five times (and only by a few hundredths, then, until today when I finally had a small breakthrough with 31:02).

It got so bad that I started saving a replay of every 31:XX run just so I can go back and compare every minor detail later on to try to get new ideas and optimize as much as possible. I now have at least 94 replays of me driving Hi-Flyer in under 32 seconds that I am going to zip up and upload once I finally get my 30:XX, if anyone has any interest to watch a whole bunch of moderately decent bounces, a few unbelievable bounces, and mostly far less than optimal endings :)

https://imgur.com/a/4e5DBF5

I am actually pretty sure 29:XX can be achieved, but with my current knowledge and techniques, that is going to have to be one hell of a well driven and lucky breakthrough run.

I will probably take a break once I finally get my 30:xx, but hopefully mrickx or someone else will help me push the boundaries of this level more- especially once everyone see some of my new tricks :wink: 8) :apple: :flower:

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 9 Jan 2022, 20:36

Well, I think [hope] after some small style adjustments that I will be hitting my goal any time now, so time to get on with the story and some recs. Whether or not this one level and my experience with it is worthy of a drawn out story is debatable, but since this is the Across internal times thread, and as mrickx said, this was the oldest standing world record in across until he blew it wide open, so here is what I can add.

I think probably the first time I ever got online and found the across world record table, Nikki would have already had his 32:61. Interestingly, some of this stuff can probably be verified now that we have some of the table history and many of my old files seem to have kept their original timestamps!

But anyway, I think the first "professional" replay that I saw of this level back in the Across days was 33:4X.
Found this rec in one of my old folders, and I think this might have been it.

07BRA.rec

Sometime later, I was very fortunate and was able to trade someone for the mythical replay itself...
I don't know if it ever got spread much, but here it is folks- a legendary piece of ancient Across history. The replay of Nikke's 32:61 world record run that lasted so long:

GURU07.rec

I have always (well, usually) enjoyed this level- I got really good at getting playable bounces or finessing my way up to the platform relatively quickly without much of a real bounce, but I have always been TERRIBLE at the ending, and never took the time I should have to try to improve.

I was very impressed and inspired by mrickx's new record- especially the one in his best times compilation video. But even in his sick 31:35 replay, the beginning seemed pretty slow. So eventually, I started to hoyl..

I experimented with three alternate beginnings, and wasted hundreds of good bounces without practicing the end. I thought to myself.. presumably how anyone who has played this level a lot has thought, what if I changed the style to try to fly straight over to the flower. Surely if everything is perfect, that could still be faster. I may have experimented a little, but not much. I probably should have taken more time to practice with "dry runs", but every time I tried it just ended up being another wasted bounce.

Eventually, even with a crappy end, I beat my previous personal best time by .2 or so to get it down to a low 33.
I kept playing and got 32:47 twice (BKER7QQ.rec and BKER72.rec).

[Funny fact, I named all of my replays BakerXX the last year or so that I played Across, and figured I would keep that pattern going but I remapped A to alovault before pretty much ditching it, but that's another story. In any case, I lost the regular use of A on my keyboard while saving some recs]

Anyway, I finally had a time better than Nikke's, which was nice, but still not good enough to beat mrickx first record. I hoyled more and got very good at the bounce- so many good bounces. Was getting good bounces almost at will now.

But I almost gave up because of the end. Mrickx end in his 31:35 seemed almost perfect. I wanted to nail something like that, but because of the damn moving apples, without taking the time to figure something consistent out, it seemed very unlikely, and I was only wasting my time.

Eventually I decided, well, since I like playing the level and getting bounces, but I always blow the end anyway, so I might as well waste some more bounces a different way and try to execute that magical flying end that I and presumably everyone else has thought of at one time or another.

I had some time off work for the holidays, and it did not take long before I drove this run a week before Christmas on 12-18:

7BKR3224.rec

Couldn't believe it- I could just imagine that this was pretty clearly the way Balazs or Csaba had intended the level to be played, and it was as if just because I (and everyone) had seen a couple of other replays that we thought were fast, we had just been copying it all along.

According to the file timestamps, it was only about 21 minutes later that I drove this: 31:11

7BKER311.rec

Think I said this in the last post, but it was probably a blessing and curse that I got such a "fast" time the second time I successfully completed the style. I thought 30:XX was going to be very easy now. I was still in the zone and playing well, but I didn't even play any more that day, thinking I would take the time way lower with little difficulty whenever else I got a little bit of time.

Now three weeks later, I have hoyled the hell out of it (well, relatively speaking) before I determined that was not necessarily the case.
I can say this though:

1. There is still a decent chance that some variation of the older ending style is faster, but if someone just uses one of my beginnings [which, tbh did not re-invent the wheel], you should still be able to reach that part of the level much faster (sometimes as much as 1-2 seconds faster) on many runs. This new ending has been especially awesome for me though, because it seems more fun and has allowed me to finish so many more runs.

2. Because of the way that you fall down on the apples, there is still some chance that there is a theoretical "best possible time" with this ending style because you may end up having to wait for the flower to descend after you touch the last apple, but despite getting many very close times within a couple of hundredths now, I have not been able to determine if that is the case definitively, yet. It almost seems like Balazs programmed something into the game to slow gravity down or make the apples move in such a way as to prevent anyone (or me specifically, anyway) from breaking 31 seconds, but I know there is almost no way that is the actual case :)

Over the course of playing this level more, I did finally get 31:40 and 31:37 using the older style ending when it was clear that I wasn't going to be able to fly over with the correct speed/velocity. Got the 31:37 just yesterday, possibly after making that last post.

Plenty more to come. I am tweaking some things, but I think I have the next evolution that should help me finish the level faster. Hopefully this post is interesting or useful to someone- let me know if anyone else takes a stab at it and have fun :) :head:

Edit: Ah, my 580kb file is too large to upload :D

Hopefully this works for everyone- here are all recs mentioned above:
https://mega.nz/file/fGh20agL#-mRx8337J ... KTpCVl51DE

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 9 Jan 2022, 21:43

Just drove a 31:16- best of the day. I have started and stopped saving all of my sub-optimal replays at this level two or three times now. I probably have saved more Hi-Flyer replays over the last couple of weeks than I have ever saved for most of the levels combined :)
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7B3116.REC
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 10 Jan 2022, 06:37

damn sick, gogo 30:xx
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 11 Jan 2022, 22:45

Thanks ArZeNiK! Well, it took too long, but my arbitrary goal is complete.

07. Hi-Flyer Stikky 30:92 [unofficial]

Honestly, didn't seem like that noteworthy of a run compared to some that I have had, but haven't even watched the replay yet.
Got a 31:28 with the old style, also.

Be back later with more recs and conversation!
Thanks everyone for helping keep the game alive :]

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Attachments
STATE.DAT
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7B3092.REC
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 12 Jan 2022, 11:28

sick!!!!!
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 22 Jan 2022, 15:07

Back to the previous topic- I agree with Labs, Grace, and I think everyone else here that playing on stream seems like reasonably fair way to validate records/prevent rampant cheating (which, let's be honest, is probably otherwise incredibly easy given all of the many tools that must exist for DOSBox after all of these years).

After I got that first 31:11 on Hi-Flyer a month or so or whatever, I actually signed up for a Twitch account to stream on and downloaded a couple of their software tools to do it, because I was convinced I was about to do something big (for myself, anyway) and figured that I might as well at least do what I can to follow the consensus and potentially try to make an official record.

Here is the channel I created:
https://www.twitch.tv/stikkybear

I did one or two test streams and played some Across, but was not able to save the stream to the channel- this may be incorrect, but from what I saw/understand, you need to have some special Twitch role or privilege to save the stream to your channel. If anyone can figure this stuff out, I am happy to play on stream [although I don't currently have a webcam, I am not opposed to the keyboard cam idea, either].

There may have been some framerate issues, also- still some kinks to work out, but if someone wants to iron out all of the details and put together a simple guide, I would get in line with that [assuming I even still have some expandable skill and can continue to find the time to push further back into it].

Since I couldn't even save the stream, though, I previously ditched the idea and decided to just play the thing and just let it be unofficial. I have been playing the game just as I remember it and just as I got it from the very awesome and easy DOSBox setup provided by Labs. I don't currently have Steam, but I also intend to buy the game on there again at some point just to show the team some added appreciation.

The only configuration updates I have made or experimented with so far is to set the magical DOSBox alovault key to the "a" button, but ended up almost never using it because of inconsistency, just as ArZeNiK has also pointed out.

With that said, at some point I think that I would also probably like to try to get more into the TAS side and see what is REALLY possibly in this game. It sounds like some of you may already be experimenting with some of the tools, and I would love to see what you can do with it!

Just thinking about it, I started to wonder if using tools would make me appreciate playing the game "naturally" any less, which is interesting to think about, but I think trying new things and expanding my experiences with the game would almost certainly end up being worth it.

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by FinMan » 22 Jan 2022, 16:25

To save your streams in twitch, go to Streamer Dashboard --> Stream --> under VOD settings you have the option to store past broadcasts
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 22 Jan 2022, 18:40

Thanks FinMan- that for sure sounds simple enough. I will try it out next time I sit down to really play/stream.
But today I also have something else to talk about and may need to ask for some help, as well.

I started to make the post above last night, and some mostly natural medication was just starting to kick in, so I saved it in notepad to review it again later before posting to make sure it was reasonable and ready to post. I had not played Across in a few days, and I felt like it was time to rip something up- it felt like something big was on the horizon.

I previously watched some Elma Hi-Flyer replays on YouTube/the forums here a few weeks ago to look for some new ideas, and it reminded me of one reason that I stuck to playing Across all of those years ago- after embracing and becoming part of the busted DOS game for so long, despite looking pretty similar at first, the physics are surprisingly different in Elma.

Watching some of those brutal Hi-Flyer Elma replays seems to put it in full display- that bounce off the right wall looks like some dadgum moon bounce gravity shit after being so deep into Across. Watching those replays it seemed pretty clear that there is no way someone is going to get a bounce like that in Across.

But, I was ready to do a mental reset and maybe try to expand my horizon a little bit last night.

I turned on some light music and went to work. Almost immediately, I had a flash and decided "screw it"... might as well try for the brutal style before someone better than me does it and hurts my feelings [considering how much time I recently spent playing this level the old way like a 1999 cave man] :]

I had to erase my mind and embrace some deep inner dyslexia- after thousands of runs going from right to left, it was time to try to turn things around and do the mirror opposite [although the vertex alignment is obviously not truly identical, at all(..?)].

I am sure it was a combination of things, but I think literally my second or third run, I got a relatively decent bounce, but not good enough. Still- I saw what might be possible, and decided, yet again, to save the run. Already created so many local Hi-Flyer replays, I had to create a new naming scheme for these runs.
70000000.REC
(55.37 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
https://imgur.com/a/gI1eE6i

On something like my tenth try... literally only two minutes later (according to the rec), this happened
.
70000001.REC
(65.48 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
https://imgur.com/a/5bjRPU5

It was an eye opening experience as I flew up onto the ledge.

Almost too easy- have to wonder- has no one really ever done this before?
Surely someone back in the day, only to realize that it must be "impossible" to get up the next big left hurdle before the genius who invented brutal vault worked his first miracle in the game.

I went downstairs and took a very long break after getting that playable(?) bounce. Had to eat dinner, but I left that replay playing in a loop on my computer as well as in the back of my mind for awhile.

Eventually came back and played the level for fun both ways, on and off.
Got close to ten more potentially workable bounces off of the right wall.
Amazingly, I think getting a bounce of the right wall might actually be easier than the left, considering how quickly and naturally it can be done, but who knows if all my hoyling on the left wall actually helped me with this or not.

But that part only gets me so far.

Time for an admission- I have never successfully done a brutal volt in this game.
According to Abula's history page, the move was first invented/successfully completed in Elma in 2002, but I feel pretty confident the first time I saw it executed in Across was Zweq's 22:0X at Uphill Battle, which is dated in my files from 7/13/03 (whether that was when the rec was driven or downloaded, I do not know).
ZWEQ05WR.REC
(66.08 KiB) Downloaded 15 times
I hope he won't mind me sharing, since I believe he shared a better run YouTube video earlier in the thread. Can remove if necessary, but I would prefer to see more Zweq replays- not less! In any case, the replay is very impressive. The most impressive part may be that I don't know if that is technically considered a true brutal volt, because he doesn't even do an alovolt or supervolt, but instead the same basic mechanic is performed using nothing but velocity, regular volt and skill.

I remember watching the replay and being pretty baffled. It makes sense, I guess, but the idea and mechanic partially broke my mind. I know it's a very important part of the game now, but I only tried for an hour or two back then and did not have any success at all.

I used to be at somewhat of a disadvantage, because my keyboard/computer would not let me press three arrow keys at the same time, so I would have to use one of the alternate keys which was a little clumsy, but that's also a very poor excuse, since, as previously mentioned, [at least at that level] Zweg didn't need supervolt at all.

Needless to say, I am equally impressed by Labs new record at the same level, as well as impressed by everyone who has successfully accomplished it in other levels and shared replays or YouTube videos of your runs [still have LOTS to follow up on in this thread, but please keep it all coming!].

I have no more supervolt, alovolt, or brutal volt excuses, because my new DOSBox setup/keyboard allows me to press all three arrows at the same time. However, after trying again for a few minutes on Uphill Battle last night, I definitely still suck at it and it's probably going to take me some time.

If someone wants to break another Across level and get a pretty nice record, this one is yours for the taking. Otherwise, I may finally try to make a little time to experiment with some kind of TAS/tools to figure this damn brutal volt thing all the way out [or if someone else can TAS a brutal victory, please do that, also!] :]

Here are eight replays of me bouncing onto the platform from the right wall and one replay of me slowly "jumping" onto the platform from the right wall, all driven last night.

https://mega.nz/file/6eJUER7S#_XxygOXts ... 4e_jPb1T-8

As previously mentioned, all of the new style replays are named 7000000X.REC.
I also threw 125+- replays of me beating Hi Flyer in less than 32 seconds with my previous new style (mostly) into the zip.

Probably boring for most, but I can guarantee watching these replays is/will be more fun and interesting than watching a live stream of me playing this level- these replays are kind of like a highlight reel of nothing but relatively good bounces, I guess :]

Some of the replays may have good bouncing but mediocre/bad endings, or vice versa. By combining the best of both, a very good time should be achievable, but I suspect that (while still fun), this old (...well, new old) style may become somewhat irrelevant relatively soon..

Btw- after watching the right wall bounces from last night again just now, I see one other potential way that I might be able to make something work to finish a run without much of a brutal volt. Looking forward to seeing if anyone else wants to give it a shot, but either way I guess time will tell :]

Thanks for reading such a long post. Think I got everything right without needing to make any edits this time? :D
Edit: Nope ;]

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 22 Jan 2022, 20:59

looks like nice bounces, kudos to you if you manage to pull this brutal style off, one of the hardest new elma styles, barely 25 ppl finished w/ it
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 23 Jan 2022, 20:20

Thanks ArZeNiK! I knew Elma brutal style was impressive, but did not realize it has been accomplished by so few. Think it was already said previously in this thread, but despite my last post I am already starting to think that it will probably be even more difficult to pull in Across, tbh- the best/most realistic hope for humans is probably to get a crazy bounce off the wall and make something happen from there.

But I have been talking about that level too much- back to Long Haul. I can't believe you figured out how to complete that end in Across! I remember trying to make it work on at least a couple of occasions once I saw it in Elma but gave up pretty quickly- seemed impossible at the time, although I think we all know that's a pretty stupid word to use in this game.

Here is the world record progression that I have for the level:

Table
354(?): 40:75 Joni
J6.REC
(121.72 KiB) Downloaded 15 times

358: 40:34 Joni
Joni improved his time on this table, but never got/don't have that rec, unfortunately.
I have a J06.REC file with a later date I think I traded for/obtained hoping it was it, but the file is otherwise identical to the one above

391: 39:97 psym0rph 06psy.REC
06PSY.REC
(120.08 KiB) Downloaded 13 times

426 38:28 Stikky
BAKER069.REC
(115.35 KiB) Downloaded 14 times

My replay is dated 3/20/06, which is actually a little later than I previously realized that I was playing, although for sure there were some long breaks. I am confident that I sent this record in along with a few others at that time, but px never updated the table (maybe for the same reasons that we know now, but who knows).

My beginning is a little slower than yours, but I grab the middle apples a bit faster- learned the idea for that style from Zeth in a replay dated 2/3/2000, which I think may amazingly be the day Elma came out. That may purely be a coincidence, or he may have passed it on to me since everyone was already very excited for and moving on to Elma then.

In any case, I think by using most of your style and part of mine, I think 34:XX seems like it would be a pretty fast and reasonably obtainable time. I enjoy playing this level, so maybe I will stream and go for it one day. There used to be kind of an urgency to the game, because everyone was always breaking records, and if you didn't move fast you would get left behind. No longer the case, which is also kind of nice- the fact that I am back here now shows that I might be slow at times, but I love this game and will probably be on and off in it for life :]

Btw- think you also said you had recently driven a few other records, but not much interesting.
I would love to know/see all that you care to share. I like all of it!

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 23 Jan 2022, 20:47

nice old wr recs, keep em coming, will try and put them into this table: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/u/ ... 1403035773
i can up all 2020-2021 wr and slwr recs ive made i gues, expect soon
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 23 Jan 2022, 21:27

here them recs https://up.elma.online/u/a3hdf6m79j/arz ... 20reks.rar
has:
01. warm up - 2 x 14.80, 7 x 14.82, 3 x 14.83 which was all WRs when driven, on table it was 14:84 stik -> 14:82 arz -> 14:80 arz -> 14:79 labs, i just fine tuned ur style imo nothing extra
05. uphil batle - my pr 20:99, some 21s and teh 22:13 which was my first WR technically, on table it was 22:30 umiz -> 22:13 arz -> 20:90 labs, because he hoyled it same time as my so i couldnt get any 21s on table. legendary rec the 21:16 where i beated zweq for the first time. brutal style obv
06. long haul - 35:67, first fruitful SL toying around, felt rly satisfying. interesting approach to right side apples and a good fast end style which posy in real time maybe
08. tunel teror - 1:02:24 and 1:03:83. the latter was my first across WR ever set on june 18 2020 good date, my second finish with the new zweq spinstyle. this is still on table, but mrickx beat it in his video with some lower 1:03, which prompted me to unoficially do the 1:02:24, with a bit refined start moves i think and good mid end too
19. salom - 44:84, SL toying around, beats mrickx unofficial WR. weird start as i couldnt find any better, and bad end bounce too but same there
20. quick round - 39:00 SL and 43:51 nonSL, bartek's drunk taunting provoked me enough to finally try brutal and eventually i landed a run that beat his 45:01 (and mrickx unofficial time too), still pretty sluggish though. in SL i then made somewhat better run with bit more modern riskier moves.
26. hedbanger - 48:98, nice WR stikky i could barely beat in SL even though looks like much time to shave off from bartek recs and own brain. maybe will try to do live later
29. laby pro - 2:36:xx, SL toying around, beated mrickx unofficial WR by somewhat, eh long cruise lev probably beatable by some 5secs i was lazy
37. frefal - SL rec with shortcut thats just so close!!! but no finish sadly, i believe it can be done though just need some precision
38. enigama - read previous, also SL, labs told me to try it and it felt close too but i sucked at killer dodge so i abandoned idea, likely ez to do
40. triks abond - 48:62, SL, tied mrickx unofficial wr, okay moves maybe i could better if i was better at teh style in elma
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Grace » 24 Jan 2022, 01:44

Lovely to read such stories

There is potential upcoming patch for across to make 100% alovolt key, of course it's entirely optional! but we will share it and you can try if you want.

Regarding brutal volts - it's one of those skills that is REALLY hard to get the first few times, and the more you do them they just *click* in your head and suddenly it's not a problem anymore. Hi-Flyer is probably the most technically ridiculous brutal we've seen in a conventional internal style, only ramp frenzy brutal is similar difficulty. Don't fret that it's hard!
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 24 Jan 2022, 17:15

did hi fly brutal in SL after about 1 hour hoylig, getting there was surprisingly easy but teh move was anoyinger than elma, mostly because of opposite head position. sadly couldnt get good end, only got 28:1x i forgot time rec provided.
ive never done it live in elma so god forbid i even start hoyling it in across, zwek could do it ezpz maybe since he also did 05 and the weird spin thing on steppes so he has across knowledge. as for you stikky i also believe in you max so gogo and pls stream i would love to watch. im also waiting for 100% alo patch and then might do some live stuff too
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 25 Jan 2022, 00:47

You are a monster ArZeNiK!!!

I watched all of your replays and thoroughly enjoyed them- so much good stuff, but did not expect Hi-Flyer brutal at all!! 8O
You win Across now. It's over-you win :lol:

Will be back with more when I can get some time off of work, but in the meantime thank you for BEATING Across :apple:

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 25 Jan 2022, 04:47

Here is my old World Record at Headbanger:

Table
453 Stikky 49:51
BAKER26W.REC
(149.12 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
And the previous one from Champi0n, also
376 Champi0n 49:71
BANA26.REC
(150.04 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
Here are ten or twelve of my personal best runs that I saved/didn't overwrite.
https://mega.nz/file/GTIUBJQL#BDc8067DL ... ycRjWA7Fw4

My best time in my State.dat is actually a couple hundredths lower than the one on the table, but I can't find two replays that close together in time- it's possible that I named one of them weird that I didn't find yet, or I may have overwritten it as "Baker26W.REC". I probably didn't care or feel the need to save every replay at this level, because even though this level has a reputation for being difficult, with some practice you can get down the pipe with surprising frequency and it becomes easy to get in a streak with lots of good times. BUT- I think everyone who wants to play this level will need to adjust to or work from Bartek's beginning style going forward, because his looks considerably faster, and I don't know how easy that one is or will be.

But the way I played it, this level is WAY easier and more fun to play than Enigma II to for me- despite taking the WR there by 3 seconds, I pretty much hate Enigma II. Probably as much as I can hate a level in this game..

When I saw your 38FUKU4.REC replay, I had to laugh at the name- I think we all have a few replays named like that. Then I saw it and when you didn't finish, I thought, "wait- is this replay mine?!" I had to double check, because I have for sure have one or two like that, and have one of the other previous world record holder's replays like that, as well. I have only completed the level with the correct route three times- not even enough to fill out my top six. But that will be a story and some replays for next time.. 😎

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 25 Jan 2022, 17:56

Here is the world record progression I have for Enigma II:

Table
364 Rainman 29:38
FREUD38.REC
(86.86 KiB) Downloaded 13 times
393 Tobak 29:13
TOBAK38.REC
(86.36 KiB) Downloaded 11 times
414 Stikky 25:90
BAKER384.REC
(76.67 KiB) Downloaded 16 times
I had completely forgotten that I drove a 28:24 before the one above, but kept playing and got 25:90 three days later.

Here is another style from Rainman that he said that he was working on to try to get a lower time. I remember talking to Rainman in #Across, and I think I got or traded for his world record replay from him directly, and I am pretty sure I got 38RAINMA from him also, but it's possible that one or both of these actually came from someone else.

[38RAINMA.REC]
(hit the limit, so all other replays are in the downloadable zip below)

Looking at the dates, looks like either Jokke drove his 30:21 (that he also seems to have shared in the Moposite downloads section) sometime later, or maybe I just received that file sometime later, but I guess it seemed his method of turning was clearly faster, because that's the one I also tried to play with later before I had ever successfully cleared the killers.

[JR38.REC]

Good old Jokke- I don't remember ever seeing him or speaking with him in #Across, but he was a very good player and seemed generous with replays- I even remember having a copy of his old State.dat to look at. He posted his 20:65 at Loop-de-Loop to be downloaded directly from the world record table, which was relatively rare. I am pretty sure he had that record the first time I ever found the world record the table, so it was also probably the first world record replay that I got to watch, because it was available and I could load it in the Shareware 1.3 version of the game that I had at the time. It was a great replay and was the world record for a long time, until John Doe finally beat it with a slightly updated style. It seemed like he mostly done playing by the time I really started, but I am not certain about that.

Anyway, here are all of my replays for Enigma II (and another kind of funny replay from Headbanger I found), including one of the older/alternate style runs from Psy. I am sure he got over those killers easily later on.

https://mega.nz/file/aHgCQQhL#3V3j2rXMR ... WAEs_1pO84

Stealth edit: Oooh, going back through my files I found another one that I thought I might have picked up but wasn't sure- it turns out that I was able to get a copy of Tobak's world record replay from him, also. I kept trying to figure out where I got the idea for my end from (I was not very creative in this case, I know!). Now listed with the other in the world record progression above.

Thanks for your patience as I go through this stuff and try to remember whatever history I can provide. If any other ancient across players here have some details/history or replays to add, would love to see and learn all of that, also :]

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 25 Jan 2022, 18:11

good read and nice recs, will now start to upload these into my sheet. maybe 22:xx can be done someday with elma's bounce style
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 25 Jan 2022, 18:28

Thanks Arz! Thank you for the awesome world record sheets that you have put together, also. Very interesting to look through broken down by level, etc.

Elma bounce would be incredible- would not think it could be done, but I didn't expect that Long Haul, Hi-Flyer (went back and forth several times), or Freefall could be done either, and I think you have proven me wrong on all of them.

I felt the pain on that Freefall replay, btw- it might even be worse to play than Enigma II, but you have now convinced me that it must be possible!

Randomly saw something amazing when I was looking at the Moposite Across replay downloads section earlier- Action Supercross 1.2 source code has been published to github!!

https://moposite.com/news_comments.php?newsid=2048

I have never written or compiled a line of C++ in my life, but this is probably one of the best things and gifts that I have seen in my life now- was already thinking about this recently.

Looks like it doesn't include some assets, which is understandable, but I am very curious to look through all of the magic that built this game and see what others can do with it [guess this was maybe part of the discussion on fixing alovolt, etc.].

Along these lines- does anyone happen to have the old level unlocker for Across? Looks like the source code doesn't include those levs either (maybe it pulls entirely from Across.res that still needs to be supplied, or not sure really). Saw the unlocker mentioned in Ab's history page, but I don't think I have anything like that in my files, and don't remember ever having it in general (not enough interest in external levels, I guess). OR does anyone have the set of the internal levels as external levels that can be edited?

I thought that I had the full set back in the day, and I actually found that I do have the full set someone altered to be importable with the original textures into Elasto Mania, which is kind of fun. Unfortunately, for Across, however, it looks like I only have an external version of Labyrinth Pro. which I admittedly used quite a bit to move the start location and practice for that ridiculous bounce.

In any case, we might be able to pull the internals out of Across.res again, but they come out as locked, it seems. Thought maybe if we can alter those killers in Enigma II a bit, it might give us a better proof of concept for accomplishing the Elma bounce and/or allow for some much easier practicing, at least, maybe.. ?

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 25 Jan 2022, 18:38

the "illegal" save/load function pretty much constitutes for train levels anyway, so that isnt a primary issue for me anymore
and yeah soruce code is now officially released by daniel (ceo of elma team). on another note, he also added 1.0/1.1 levels into steam workshop as externals, which might not really be what you need but still good to have, has old flower anim and shit. attached below
edit: nvm, old flower mightve been a false memory :/
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by sunl » 25 Jan 2022, 19:47

Here is reliable Alovolt button that I released at the request of Labs: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10153

Also has the old 1.1 internals added as levels 43-47
Last edited by sunl on 25 Jan 2022, 23:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 25 Jan 2022, 21:53

i will be streaming across for a bit, see how it goes, how much cam lag osv
my stream link: https://www.twitch.tv/thegreatestroman39
feel free to join! maybe wrs wont be made today. and im not using mic either cuz too lazy, some other day ez
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 26 Jan 2022, 00:16

Caught a few of your Quick Round runs while at work. Grace is right- you make brutal volt look easy- that first apple bounce looks like the trickier one now, but now that sunl has given us alovolt, just needs some practice.

If you keep going you will get a lot of WRs imo :]

Any specific software/settings you would recommend for the stream?
Don't know when I will do it [probably no point until I fix my brutal volt, especially], but I will stream later on, almost for sure

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 26 Jan 2022, 00:37

Btw- found this "cheatplayer" function in TELJES.CPP. Turns out we didn't have to hoyle the whole time- this game has built in cheat codes guys ;]

Code: Select all

void cheatplayer( void ) {
	// Egyetlen jatekosnak sem szabad lennie:
	if( State->jatekosokszama != 0 )
		hiba( "cheatplayer-ben mar van valaki bejegyezve!" );

	State->jatekosokszama = 1;

	int hanypalya = Palyaszam;
	hanypalya = 40;

	jatekos* pjat = &State->jatekosok[0];
	pjat->sikerespalyakszama = hanypalya;
	strcpy( pjat->nev, "Cheat" );
	pjat->jelenlegipalya = 0;


	for( int i = 0; i < hanypalya; i++ ) {
		palyaidejei* pidok = &State->palyakidejei[i];
		if( pidok->idokszama != 0 )
			hiba( "cheatplayer-ben bug!" );
		pidok->idokszama = 1;
		pidok->idok[0] = 180000l;
	}
}
But seriously, any idea what this is sunl? Is there a better thread or topic to discuss this

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by sunl » 26 Jan 2022, 05:03

The cheatplayer function, when you have an empty state dat, creates a player called "Cheat" with all the levels unlocked by default, so that Balazs didn't have to hoyl all the levels to test Apple Harvest. I think it crashes if the state dat already has a player. The cheatplayer function is disabled however so there's no way to actually run the function without modifying the .exe file

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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by ArZeNiK » 26 Jan 2022, 10:14

Stikky wrote:
26 Jan 2022, 00:16
Caught a few of your Quick Round runs while at work. Grace is right- you make brutal volt look easy- that first apple bounce looks like the trickier one now, but now that sunl has given us alovolt, just needs some practice.

If you keep going you will get a lot of WRs imo :]

Any specific software/settings you would recommend for the stream?
Don't know when I will do it [probably no point until I fix my brutal volt, especially], but I will stream later on, almost for sure
yeah that bounce is stupid
havent playd ints in elma even in a while so itll take a bit of time to unrust
i used obs for streaming because twitch studio, which i usually use, doesnt recognise webcam, but maybe it will work for you. also i had to set my resolution to 480p because stream was lagging according to viewers

good luck with your streaming!
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Grace » 26 Jan 2022, 11:43

I've added charts for Across to Cyberscore: https://cyberscore.me.uk/game/2867
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Labs » 6 Feb 2022, 02:56

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/1281841311

Thanks for update abula and for good alo sunl! Felt like i have to do wr on hehe as i made across table into life with it, so first streamed wr got that also.
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Re: New Across Internal Times

Post by Stikky » 23 Feb 2022, 21:06

Nice one, Labs! For those who haven't seen, ArZeNiK and myself have also been streaming some.
Hopefully some new updates on the next WR table soon.. :wink:

https://www.twitch.tv/stikkybear
https://www.twitch.tv/thegreatestroman39

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