A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

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Lee
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A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by Lee »

We've seen discussion of achievements before and nothing has really come from that. As a community we've grown a lot over the years, and it feels like the time is right to finally start adding achievements to EOL. As EOL is not tied to any existing service, it gives us a chance to innovate/reinvent the achievement system. For example, incremental achievements (eg. achieve something 1, 10, 100 times) can be condensed into a single multi-tiered achievement.

:apple: Achievements should be achievable, easy to understand, encourage play and participation in various aspects of the game, and above all they should reward a noteworthy accomplishment at all skill levels.
:killer: Achievements should not be exclusive or time limited, abundant, unreasonably hard or confusing, or too easy (no feat was made). Achievements focussed around chatting, making levels, starting battles, obtaining apples/killers/flowers etc. are potentially problematic and open the way for chat spam, low effort levels, and possibly other undesirable forms of behaviour. Each achievement should be carefully considered before being implemented. It's great to encourage players to make levels and start battles, but how can we control this to avoid low effort spam?

Some examples of achievements I think could work well as a starting point:

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Win your first battle
- Win 10 battles.
- Win 100 battles.
- Win 1000 battles.
Winning your first battle is a big deal for a new player, and realistically, if you can win one battle, you can win many more. 1000 is a really high number, but I think it's reasonable as something a player can work towards in the long term. As it stands, 35 players would have the final tier of this achievement. That feels right to me.

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Have a total time in any external level pack.
- Have a total time in 5 external level packs.
- Have a total time in 25 external level packs.
- Have a total time in 100 external level packs.
This one would work to encourage players to start exploring external level packs. We would need to be careful with this one though as it may just encourage a player to spam a bunch of level packs with one level each in an attempt to cheese the achievement. We could put some limitations in place, such as a minimum of 10 levels in the pack, or five players having achieved a total time for the pack to be eligible. An alternative would be to manually pick which level packs are eligible for this achievement and mark them with an icon on the level packs page.

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Win 3 battles in a row.
An example of a non-tiered achievement. Simple and easy to understand, and winning three battles in a row is something noteworthy.

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Finish all internal levels.
- Finish all internal levels with a total time under 1 hour.
- Finish all internal levels with a total time under 55 minutes.
- Finish all internal levels with a total time under 50 minutes.
- Finish all internal levels with a total time under 45 minutes.
- Finish all internal levels with a total time under 40 minutes.
'Cause why not? Under 40 mins TT is currently the highest tier on the Steam version of the game.
Last edited by Lee on 31 Mar 2024, 10:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by ArZeNiK »

here is my list of achievements that i wrote 5 yrs ago (some of them suck, most of them have shit names, go figure)

Warmed Up! - Finish 1 internal.
Way to Go - Finish 10 internals.
Are We There Yet? - Finish 27 internals.
Quest Complete - Finish all 54 internals.
Just the Beginning - Get 1 beginner time.
Beginners' Way - Get 10 beginner times.
Continuing Beginning - Get 27 beginner times.
Beginner Internalist - Get 54 beginner times.
It's OK - Get 1 OK time.
Even More OK - Get 10 OK times.
Are You OK? - Get 27 OK times.
OK Internalist - Get 54 OK times.
Good One - Get 1 good time.
Getting Good - Get 10 good times.
Pretty Good - Get 27 good times.
Good Internalist - Get 54 good times.
Lucker - Get 1 pro time.
Skiller - Get 10 pro times.
Semi-pro - Get 27 pro times.
Pro Internalist - Get 54 pro times.
Semi-Höyla - Get 1 WC time.
Average Nordic - Get 10 WC times.
Slowly Taking Over the World - Get 27 WC times.
World Class Internalist - Get 54 WC times.
Höyla - Get 1 legendary time.
Way of Legends - Get 10 legendary times.
Semi-legend - Get 27 legendary times.
Legendary Internalist - Get 54 legendary times.
Nolif0r - Get 1 godlike time.
Impsy Man - Get 10 godlike times.
Demigod - Get 27 godlike times.
Godlike Internalist - Get 54 godlike times.
GZ! - Get 1 WR. (cumulative, NOT based on tables)
Uprising Champion - Get 5 WRs.
True Talent - Get 10 WRs.
Incredible Excellence - Get 50 WRs.
Passing the Limit - Get under 1h limit.
50 Is for Losers - Get under 50 min limit.
Under Three Quarters - Get under 45 min limit.
Elite - Get under 40 min limit.
Truly Elite - Get under 35 min limit.
There's more? - Finish 1 external.
This Is Fun! - Finish 100 external.
External Owner - Finish 1000 externals.
Nolif0r Externalist - Finish 10000 externals.
Recorder - Get 1 external record (ER) (ER only counts on levs w/ atleast 3 finishes)
Hooked To Externals - Get 50 ERs.
Pro Externalist - Get 500 ERs.
Legendary Externalist - Get 2000 ERs.
Competing - Play 1 battle.
Battler - Play 100 battles.
Active Battler - Play 1000 battles.
Elder Battler - Play 10000 battles.
Win! - Win 1 battle.
Nice Battler - Win 10 battles.
Pro Battler - Win 100 battles.
Legendary Battler - Win 1000 Battles.
First Finisher - Win 10 FF battles.
Healthy Eater - Win 10 apple battles.
Survivor - Win 10 survivor battles.
Snail - Win 10 slowness battles.
Teamwork - Win 10 multi battles.
Supersonic - Win 10 speed battles.
Tag, You're All It - Win 10 flagtag battles.
Smart - Win 10 last counts battles.
One try? Enough - Win 10 onelife battles.
Always in Shape - Win 1 1htt battle.
Linear - Finish 1 levelpack.
Constant - Finish 10 levelpacks.
Patient - Finish 25 levelpacks.
Mixed Skills - Finish 50 levelpacks.
Apple Eater - Collect 1000 apples.
Apple Devourer - Collect 10 000 apples.
Apple Conoisseur - Collect 100 000 apples.
National Elite - Get 5 national records. (would need IP-based flag assigning)
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by Hosp »

i agree on all points
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Lee
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by Lee »

Code: Select all

Achieve all Beginner targets.
- Achieve all OK targets.
- Achieve all Good targets.
- Achieve all Professional targets.
- Achieve all World Class targets.
- Achieve all Legendary targets.
- Achieve all Godlike targets.

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Finish 10 external levels.
- Finish 100 external levels.
- Finish 1,000 external levels.
- Finish 10,000 external levels.
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by A.K.B. »

Consider if you want achievements to be 100%-able, or just more casual non-intended for completionism. Happy either way. :D
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by gimp »

Sure, I don’t see why there’d be any debate over this and it could only make the experience more enjoyable, not hurt it. But who has to do the work? That’s who you’re trying to convince, right?
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Lee
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by Lee »

The purpose of this topic isn't to convince, but to work out any potential problems with achievements before implementing them. I was thinking more on achievements related to external levels, and I think a good solution would be to exclude a person's own levels and level packs when trying for those achievements.
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by Kopaka »

Should achievements be retroactive?

That has big impact on implementation, if retroactive we need to run through all old data, so that would be easier to do with all achievements at once.
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by Hosp »

I think yes needs to be retroactive.
It feels like otherwise would be bit annoy have to play like 15 years to get the achieves u already could have.
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by Lee »

Of course.
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by Lee »

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

I compiled this list using suggestions from multiple topics. It's pretty self explanatory. So far I think there are a good number of achievement ideas covering multiple styles of play.
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by Grace »

Haven't commented here prior, it's a big topic and hard to put my thoughts in order. I'm a huge achievement hunter nerd and I have tons of thoughts.
:apple: Achievements should be achievable, easy to understand, encourage play and participation in various aspects of the game, and above all they should reward a noteworthy accomplishment at all skill levels.
:killer: Achievements should not be exclusive or time limited, abundant, unreasonably hard or confusing, or too easy (no feat was made). Achievements focussed around chatting, making levels, starting battles, obtaining apples/killers/flowers etc. are potentially problematic and open the way for chat spam, low effort levels, and possibly other undesirable forms of behaviour. Each achievement should be carefully considered before being implemented. It's great to encourage players to make levels and start battles, but how can we control this to avoid low effort spam?
I really, really like the fact that you're thinking about what makes a good achievement rather than just throwing some low-effort stuff at a wall and calling it done. It's very easy to make achievements more annoying than fun.

I would add one dot-point here: an achievement should never be taken away! If you have an achievement for having 5 external WRs and you lose one of your 5, you should keep the achievement. Achievements that can be unticked are dreadful.
Consider if you want achievements to be 100%-able, or just more casual non-intended for completionism. Happy either way.
AKB is right. Achievements sets that aren't realistically 100%able are far, far less attractive. A good way to handle this is to have two types of achievements - novel, single-accomplishment achievements like "win 3 battles in a row"; and some form of "badges" or whatever that separate out the achievements-that-arent-intended-to-be-done-to-100%
For example, incremental achievements (eg. achieve something 1, 10, 100 times) can be condensed into a single multi-tiered achievement.
I think this is a must, especially in a game with as much playtime as Elma. For someone who's early in their achievement hunting journey, seeing that "win 1,000 battles" exists is incredibly demotivating as an achievement to hunt and will dissuade people from engaging with the system at all. One of the best ways to handle this problem is to have the multi-tiered achievement system Leek is suggesting. You can dress it up nicely too - "Bronze battle victor" could be to win 1 battle, where "Silver battle victor" is winning 10, etc. There's 1000 ways to dress this up
This one would work to encourage players to start exploring external level packs. We would need to be careful with this one though as it may just encourage a player to spam a bunch of level packs with one level each in an attempt to cheese the achievement. We could put some limitations in place, such as a minimum of 10 levels in the pack, or five players having achieved a total time for the pack to be eligible. An alternative would be to manually pick which level packs are eligible for this achievement and mark them with an icon on the level packs page.
Personally, I would ask that if we're looking to add achievements, it gets used as a system to provide more value and interest to the levelpacks system. The suggested achievements here are already great for that (get 10 levelpack TTs etc) but particularly the point about curated level-packs is of value to me. Curated level-packs could also go in towards achievement system expansions. Perhaps we have achievements like "get under 45mins TT in EOL levelpack" and "get over 1000 kinglist points in EOL levelpack" for curated levelpacks.

I also think that the "kinglist" feature in EOL could be brought in here for global achievements, which I haven't seen listed so far.
  • Earn 1,000 kinglist points in levelpacks
  • Earn 5,000 kinglist points in levelpacks
  • Earn 10,000 kinglist points in levelpacks
etc. This would also serve to include a metric for one of EOL site's biggest misses with the kinglist system - no global kinglist.
I compiled this list using suggestions from multiple topics. It's pretty self explanatory. So far I think there are a good number of achievement ideas covering multiple styles of play.
Regarding the "not yet possible" achievements in this sheet, I would suggest that perhaps for some of the more novel achievements (reach x Secret area, do this fun challenge, etc) that having manual achievements to be awarded can be fun as well - it gives people an interaction and a chance to celebrate novel fun stuff in the community. Perhaps, an "achievement curator" role could be created - their responsibilities would be to handle manually awarding novel achievements that we cannot automate, and to curate level-packs and level-pack achievement sets for the proposed achievement system.
This isn't actually a quote it's just here to make my format consistent
I think there's room for tons of growth out of this system. For example, it would be a strong motivator for people to actually work on the oft-mentioned target-times-for-external-packs concepts, if we could tie formal achievements to them.

I also think there's room for specialised battle-types or crippled gameplay to have achievements, but I'm not sold on them personally. "Collect 1000 apples in apple battles" or "complete 10 internal levels without using volts" as starting concepts here.
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by Hosp »

I agree with all in doc except one: I think getting an achievement for making a shirt is good, promotes people to make their own shirt. (which is more nice when spying etc)
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Re: A Serious Discussion About EOL Achievements

Post by Igge »

I agree with pretty much everything that's been said here by everyone, must be a first for lauta : D

I love achievements; im a sucker for that useless dopamine hit. I think you're all going about it in exactly the right way, and I will see if i can think of some other suggestions, but all in all its looking like a great concept that I (and im sure many others) would enjoy thoroughly! <3
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