The fastest possible internal times program

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milagros
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by milagros »

even if it was feasible, it would be kinda useless
I guess an optimal run on labpro would be pretty sick and retarded:)
even with much simple approach you can get times like 8.xx warmup, 8.xx flattrack, 9.xx twinpeaks, 6.xx freefall or 7.xx enigma
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Zweq
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by Zweq »

just take first 2 apples in lab pro with both wheels and head in same frame then 1000000000 speed darm bounce with 30fps towards flower through poligons say no to collision detection 20.63 AHAHAC
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Bjenn
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by Bjenn »

This swiftly developed into an out-of-hands debate.
with this state of mind, ez 5min tt xd
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Zweq
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by Zweq »

well, in theory 10-15 min TT is definitely achievable, if you do everything within the rules of the game engine and without arbitrary limitations like "no bugs", however I have no idea who would want to höyl apple harvest for 10 bug bounces and 6 apple bugs

edit: i dont know how to summarize my brain, something like: optimizing is always interesting problem, but i think in elma it's not interesting because what i've talked with mila you need an initial solution for the computer to optimize and then even small improvement in the initial solution is much more valuable than the optimization, and when you do apple bugs and bug bounces the initial solution can always be improved (pretty safe to say)
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by Mawane »

actually taking an apple with head+wheel+wheel at the same time = 3 apple takes, so much possibility!
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dawid
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by dawid »

Mawane wrote:actually taking an apple with head+wheel+wheel at the same time = 3 apple takes, so much possibility!
IMO we cant accept apple bugs in calculations. We need to use "elma 2" physic (without internal error)
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by Mats »

Need to use the MAThS solution. Just use this formula ((54 Levs+24 bugs)/42 billion outcomes +20 million random factors)= best theoretical TT 22.25.71* Human factor 1,47= best human TT 32.12.99
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ribot
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by ribot »

How come no one proved jonsykkel wrong here?

First of all the approach to calculate this on all possible keypresses is just dumb. Although he did mention that you don't have to calculate deaths, there is a lot more to it. The finding of the algorithm is the key here, and that is the path that future computing is taking. You wouldn't need to calculate jon's six states when the bike is in the air, gas if backwheel doesn't touch ground. Neither would you need to test what happens if you try to turn a thousand times or 999 times. The calculation would of course need to be a lot more complex, but in return, you can reduce those extreme numbers.

Just imagine if you would calculate how to win an F1 race by calculating all possibilities of gas, break, steer. It's absurd. You can however optimize many different things. Translated to elma, you could try to find higher speeds in different places for example. The answer lies in AI, whether you could find the theoretical absolute or not.

Second of all, computers are estimated to be a lot faster than what Moore's law predicts. Thirdly, artificial intelligence is estimated to become more intelligent than our own processing skills in not-so-far future.
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by Lousku »

ribot wrote:You wouldn't need to calculate jon's six states when the bike is in the air, gas if backwheel doesn't touch ground.
Sure you would, it affects rotation. But yeah, it can be more optimal than pure bruteforce. This just isn't a very fruitful discussion until someone proposes some idea of an algorithm.

Simpel exampel problem: how to prove that it's fastest to just hold gas for 4 seconds in the start of hi flyer?

edit: lol
Last edited by Lousku on 21 Sep 2014, 02:31, edited 1 time in total.
then again i don't know anything
maybe easier not to think abouut alöl things thought than not things thought ... or something..=?
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by jonsykkel »

ribot wrote:First of all the approach to calculate this on all possible keypresses is just dumb.
yes, and that was dawids idea:
dawid wrote:program should calculate all possible combinations of rides (up to a appointed time of ride)
im never said writing a program that can play elma a milion times beter than humans is impasibel, but this was about finding an optimal run
ribot wrote:You wouldn't need to calculate jon's six states when the bike is in the air, gas if backwheel doesn't touch ground.
not true, change of wheel rotation sped affects bike rotation sped
ribot wrote:Neither would you need to test what happens if you try to turn a thousand times or 999 times.
if you start doing stuff like that you cant be sure you get the absolutely optimal run, unless cane somehow prove that it doesnt make a diference
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dawid
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by dawid »

jonsykkel wrote:
ribot wrote:First of all the approach to calculate this on all possible keypresses is just dumb.
yes, and that was dawids idea:
dawid wrote:program should calculate all possible combinations of rides (up to a appointed time of ride)
im never said writing a program that can play elma a milion times beter than humans is impasibel, but this was about finding an optimal run
Look at first post of this topic. I edited it.
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by ribot »

ribot wrote:You wouldn't need to calculate jon's six states when the bike is in the air, gas if backwheel doesn't touch ground.
not true, change of wheel rotation sped affects bike rotation sped
ribot wrote:Neither would you need to test what happens if you try to turn a thousand times or 999 times.
if you start doing stuff like that you cant be sure you get the absolutely optimal run, unless cane somehow prove that it doesnt make a diference[/quote]
It's easily provable using the game physics.

Anyway, to prove jon more wrong: as autoplay works differently every time, so even if each frame has so many combinations, even the exact same keypresses wouldn't result in the same ride. How would you even know when you have calculated all possibilities for the first frame?

We also need to add each possible framerate, and vsync on or off. But is that even enough?
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by jonsykkel »

ribot wrote:It's easily provable using the game physics.
no
ribot wrote:Anyway, to prove jon more wrong: as autoplay works differently every time, so even if each frame has so many combinations, even the exact same keypresses wouldn't result in the same ride.
then that autoplay thing obviously isnt synced with the elma physics, it probably just records keypreses inaccurately in a loop and plays them back. there're no random factors except for the fps thing
ribot wrote:We also need to add each possible framerate, and vsync on or off. But is that even enough?
vsync on/off just determines the fps so thats not a factor, and yes its enough
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by -T0ny- »

sykkel is right, stop arguing
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ribot
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by ribot »

If the fps thing is a random factor than how would you even calculate the first frame?
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milagros
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by milagros »

ribot is wrong, jonsykkel is a bit less wrong:)
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by dimkadimon »

Guys, I've suggested this about 5 years ago: http://mopolauta.moposite.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6068

I still think this is possible. In fact I could probably do it if someone gives me the source to Elma or at least tells me how the physics works.
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milagros
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by milagros »

go for it! :lol:
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by dimkadimon »

milagros wrote:go for it! :lol:
I need the source or the equations...
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by dimkadimon »

Very cool! Luckily we don't need to consider all those extra forces in 3 dimensions.
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dawid
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by dawid »

dimkadimon, is your idea coherent with avolt?
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Re: The fastest possible internal times program

Post by FinMan »

Give elma to that and it won't finish warm up, gg
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