I know EOL team has been working a lot lately and i wouldnt like that job to be missed, but I only see okeol as a great oportunity to move forward. EOL is 100 steps behind.
Imo there is interest in okeol, but since itsnt our current version and it doesnt have elmaonline site. I wouldnt care that much in playing internals, externals battles without real wins, ranking, etc meanwhile there is another server running.
So what would be good to know for this community is:
Does jon agrees to use his version for this? Will him help to fix any problem if needed? (We dont need an update every week, just a stable version).
Can and want EOL Team change elmaonline site to make okeol work online as EOL? (Yes, this will be take a lot of time. Maybe less, the same or more than the time already spent for current site).
To me its like this:
1- "We" should implement elmaonline site for okeol.
2- Wrs: there arent much wrs nowadays and gold era is gone. So lets have current wr table for those who wants to play with current settings (fps, bugs, etc).
3- New wr table for okeol. Its not big deal and it will bring us new opportunities.
4- About current record of externals levels, Ive heard there could be a list somewhere saying "Driven in EOL" or something. Anyways that wont be a problem imo. Just need to find the best option.
5- If jon agrees, he could make mini updates if needed. We are using EOL since many years without any update from milagros and we know there are several things to improve, yet we can use it. So with a minimum of help from jon there shouldnt be serious problems.
6- Lets move on and use this amazing version.
Theres a lot of work and time from EOL team already done, but what if we put that energy in finally getting the best version of the game? okeol has potential. I think that anyone who tries it for a while will think that.
Plan B
1-If jon and Elastomania community dont have interest, then itd would be nice to know, so anyone from elma scene including me will stop asking or trying to put life to this. Would be good to hear opinions about this.
2- Lets keep saying "there isnt interest" in a version wich is 100 times better than current one.
3- Lets keep using current outdated version without support from milagros for the rest of our lives.
Elastomania Future
Moderator: Moporators
Re: Elastomania Future
I agree. Especially with trying to merge EOL with OKEOL.
My opinion is: this community isn't huge. The best thing to to is trying to get the best out of everyone's collaboration to the scene, be it programming, levmaking, balle-posting, cup-hosting, etc. And instead of even more division for an already relatively small community, try to produce the ultimate "AIO" Elasto Mania experience, for once and maybe for all.
This means, of course, merging EOL with OKEOL... among other things.
Disclaimer: I personally haven't spoken with Sla about this. This is just my spontaneous reaction. Give or take.
My opinion is: this community isn't huge. The best thing to to is trying to get the best out of everyone's collaboration to the scene, be it programming, levmaking, balle-posting, cup-hosting, etc. And instead of even more division for an already relatively small community, try to produce the ultimate "AIO" Elasto Mania experience, for once and maybe for all.
This means, of course, merging EOL with OKEOL... among other things.
Disclaimer: I personally haven't spoken with Sla about this. This is just my spontaneous reaction. Give or take.
Re: Elastomania Future
I wanted to give my 2 cents.
First of all, okeol is an amazing client compared to EOL, there's no doubt about that. But the approaches to making these work were completely different. Basically, EOL is a giant hack into the original elasto mania game code without having any of the source code itself. It instead manipulates memory to trick the original elasto mania compiled code into doing things it wasn't supposed to. I don't know much about this process (or c++ in general), but i'm positive that this is pretty much the hardest way imaginable to try to build or change any piece of software, especially an online game. This is why it has so many limitations. But don't be fooled into thinking it's somehow because of not as good developers or anything like that. It's an incredibly hard thing to do as far as I know.
Okeol on the other hand is a re-written game with reverse engineered physics, meaning like any normal game out there, it has all of the source code available to easily add or modify any features with no limitations at all. It's also 10 years ahead of EOL and 25-ish (?) years ahead of elasto mania. So the tools and CPU power available now to build a beautiful UI and nice features have advanced significantly. So it's no surprise that okeol is amazing game client when compared to EOL.
However, okeol doesn't have 10+ years of game data (500k levels, 180 million times, lots of legacy imported times, replays, cups, 10 years of battles, 10 years kuski data, etc.). On top of this data is a website that would take a single developer many months to re-create from scratch. So I don't think okeol is miles ahead unfortunately.
The only way that I will personally be excited about okeol is if it becomes the new eol game client, and connects to the eol website and database. I'm sure it can be done, but i'm sure there's also some complications around doing it, and I don't know how markuu and jonsy feel about this idea. I also know that markuu mentioned that the EOL server side code (which talks to the same database as the website, afaik), was written in some really super old c++ and can no longer be compiled in its current state. This would probably make it a lot harder to connect okeol client to eol server, because if you wanted to change the server to make it easier for okeol to exchange data with it, then a lot of work has to be done (maybe an entire re-write of the server-side code, I'm not sure).
I know jonsy talked a lot about fixing the buggy physics model. Well, if this happens, its not a simple task to modify all world record tables to know which client a time was driven in. The eol website (if okeol ever connected to it) would require some pretty big re-factoring if every time driven had to track which client it was driven in. IMO, it's better to keep the physics 100% identical even though they are buggy. It would at least be one less thing to think about when as we try to figure out where to go from here.
So my biggest question to jonsy and markuu, is, why not replace eol client with okeol and keep the same server and website?
While the physics and fps things in the game are buggy, the main things I look forward to is an amazing UI around settings, replays, ghost riders etc, making new battle types, and improving existing game play features. Levels with moving polygons would be cool (but might also be very hard to maintain backwards compatibility with the old format of level and replay files. Browser based replay viewers would have to be updated. Internal errors would maybe happen if you tried to view such a level/rec in original game client. SLE would need updates, etc.). But i'm sure there are other things like new battle types that would be much easier to implement and also very fun.
First of all, okeol is an amazing client compared to EOL, there's no doubt about that. But the approaches to making these work were completely different. Basically, EOL is a giant hack into the original elasto mania game code without having any of the source code itself. It instead manipulates memory to trick the original elasto mania compiled code into doing things it wasn't supposed to. I don't know much about this process (or c++ in general), but i'm positive that this is pretty much the hardest way imaginable to try to build or change any piece of software, especially an online game. This is why it has so many limitations. But don't be fooled into thinking it's somehow because of not as good developers or anything like that. It's an incredibly hard thing to do as far as I know.
Okeol on the other hand is a re-written game with reverse engineered physics, meaning like any normal game out there, it has all of the source code available to easily add or modify any features with no limitations at all. It's also 10 years ahead of EOL and 25-ish (?) years ahead of elasto mania. So the tools and CPU power available now to build a beautiful UI and nice features have advanced significantly. So it's no surprise that okeol is amazing game client when compared to EOL.
However, okeol doesn't have 10+ years of game data (500k levels, 180 million times, lots of legacy imported times, replays, cups, 10 years of battles, 10 years kuski data, etc.). On top of this data is a website that would take a single developer many months to re-create from scratch. So I don't think okeol is miles ahead unfortunately.
The only way that I will personally be excited about okeol is if it becomes the new eol game client, and connects to the eol website and database. I'm sure it can be done, but i'm sure there's also some complications around doing it, and I don't know how markuu and jonsy feel about this idea. I also know that markuu mentioned that the EOL server side code (which talks to the same database as the website, afaik), was written in some really super old c++ and can no longer be compiled in its current state. This would probably make it a lot harder to connect okeol client to eol server, because if you wanted to change the server to make it easier for okeol to exchange data with it, then a lot of work has to be done (maybe an entire re-write of the server-side code, I'm not sure).
I know jonsy talked a lot about fixing the buggy physics model. Well, if this happens, its not a simple task to modify all world record tables to know which client a time was driven in. The eol website (if okeol ever connected to it) would require some pretty big re-factoring if every time driven had to track which client it was driven in. IMO, it's better to keep the physics 100% identical even though they are buggy. It would at least be one less thing to think about when as we try to figure out where to go from here.
So my biggest question to jonsy and markuu, is, why not replace eol client with okeol and keep the same server and website?
While the physics and fps things in the game are buggy, the main things I look forward to is an amazing UI around settings, replays, ghost riders etc, making new battle types, and improving existing game play features. Levels with moving polygons would be cool (but might also be very hard to maintain backwards compatibility with the old format of level and replay files. Browser based replay viewers would have to be updated. Internal errors would maybe happen if you tried to view such a level/rec in original game client. SLE would need updates, etc.). But i'm sure there are other things like new battle types that would be much easier to implement and also very fun.
Re: Elastomania Future
okeol already working (http://zzz.st/elma/okeol/okeol006.zip and has site also (https://okeapp.janka.la/).
I dunno what that means. The 2 game is different and needs separate wr table. Why would you modify wr tables? Or mabe i misunderstanging this, dunno.
Yes, but not possible as i heard.
Yeps.
Yes, i already left eol.
Its not needed to fully close eol, even if okeol would take its place. Let the guys play there for moposite wrs with the old pexi terrible system if they want.
I could compare this as across vs elma. U choose which one u like more and play it.
Code: Select all
I know jonsy talked a lot about fixing the buggy physics model. Well, if this happens, its not a simple task to modify all world record tables to know which client a time was driven in. The eol website (if okeol ever connected to it) would require some pretty big re-factoring if every time driven had to track which client it was driven in. IMO, it's better to keep the physics 100% identical even though they are buggy. It would at least be one less thing to think about when as we try to figure out where to go from here.Code: Select all
1- "We" should implement elmaonline site for okeol.Code: Select all
3- New wr table for okeol. Its not big deal and it will bring us new opportunities.Code: Select all
6- Lets move on and use this amazing version.Its not needed to fully close eol, even if okeol would take its place. Let the guys play there for moposite wrs with the old pexi terrible system if they want.
I could compare this as across vs elma. U choose which one u like more and play it.
Last edited by Labs on 24 Jul 2021, 12:34, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Elastomania Future
The change in physics is to leave fps tweaking behind. Seems supported by community. And means a new wr table is required.
Why to have a eol website at all? It's better if everything is is available inside the game. Then the game can run in the browser. (Windows can run in the browser so why not Elma)
Jon won't do any updates so we're back to square one.
Why to have a eol website at all? It's better if everything is is available inside the game. Then the game can run in the browser. (Windows can run in the browser so why not Elma)
Jon won't do any updates so we're back to square one.
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"leader status in the Elma against-the-system underground" - Abula
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ElmaAutoGravityApples 2024
IncrElastoMania - Elma Simulation - Browser Game 2020
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"leader status in the Elma against-the-system underground" - Abula
-
ElmaAutoGravityApples 2024
IncrElastoMania - Elma Simulation - Browser Game 2020
Elma Imager - Command Line Tool 2020
Re: Elastomania Future
Re: Elastomania Future
I would like to start making levs and battles for okeol but is anyone there lately? Maybe if I just start battling everything there some players will come? I think we have to start somewhere but battlers don't have an incentive to move from EOL and tbh battles are all I'm interested in elma atm