Level designing

Bogart · Post by **Bogart** » 8 Jan 2006, 16:25

Hi all of you Elma fans!

First IÂ´d like to say that I couldnÂ´t find any topic about level designing (!?). So if there is, please let me know by a kick in the head or something like that.

IÂ´m interested in a thread where you can discuss or share tips about level designing. I, as many others I think, love to make levels and I have maked 1 good level in my opinion. But 1 is far from enough. I want to make hundreds of `em. The sad thing is that everytime I do a level, I first think itÂ´s real good looking at it in ALE. Later after IÂ´ve played it a few times I realise that it really sucks.

I need:

*tips
*inspiration
*to know what all you guys like in a level

And IÂ´m also interested in some level designing bugs if there is. So as lines in the level that isnÂ´t there. (?!). If you know what I mean...

So share as much as you like, but only if itÂ´s good

niN · Post by **niN** » 8 Jan 2006, 17:58

I belive there already is a thread like this. I don't know where but i think it exists. I can be wrong but... Anyways I dont mind keeping this topic unlocked.

John · Post by **John** » 8 Jan 2006, 20:07

hihi heres an easy technique I often use to make very smooth loops just as big as I want them (WARNING! ALE-users, this is 10secs loss of ur lifes)

ok I decided to make loop as high as the distance between the red dots...

start out by making some sort of arrow like this, making it too spiky wont become smooth, same with making it too flat. bah just do smth...

create new vertexes just in the middle and slightly outside the 2 previous ones...

create new vertexes just in the middle above the 4 previous ones...

just continue doing this and it will be real round =)
bet u didnt know this tech already

The_BoneLESS · Post by **The_BoneLESS** » 8 Jan 2006, 20:23

Really good tip John...

Another tip is before throwing yourself in the editor, try thinking about the level and drawing the level on a piece of paper first. When you think your level looks playable and good, make it in the editor.

Bogart · Post by **Bogart** » 8 Jan 2006, 20:38

Yeah great tip John!

Very simple but also very usefull.

Another tip is before throwing yourself in the editor, try thinking about the level and drawing the level on a piece of paper first. When you think your level looks playable and good, make it in the editor.

Tried that in the very beginning, stopped cus I ran out of paper

good tip!

crazyevildude · Post by **crazyevildude** » 8 Jan 2006, 20:56

Bogart wrote:Yeah great tip John! Very simple but also very usefull.

Another tip is before throwing yourself in the editor, try thinking about the level and drawing the level on a piece of paper first. When you think your level looks playable and good, make it in the editor.
Tried that in the very beginning, stopped cus I ran out of paper good tip!

Draw it in MSpaint perhaps? You only need a rough idea.

teajay · Post by **teajay** » 8 Jan 2006, 21:59

Heah, john, I actually never thought of it like that. Quite smart teh. =)

Post by **SveinR** » 8 Jan 2006, 22:31

Yeh John, sach clever, never thought of =)

Hmz dunno if I will use it though, no big fan of smooth loops anyway

berhabdul · Post by **berhabdul** » 8 Jan 2006, 22:32

nice but non-ALE, so stupid and waste of time. Ale is the best

jonsterion · Post by **jonsterion** » 8 Jan 2006, 23:40

I donÂ´t use ALE... only for pipe levs and such

tip: put flower on a random spot. start making your level backwards, from end to start.

John · Post by **John** » 8 Jan 2006, 23:55

SveinR wrote:Hmz dunno if I will use it though, no big fan of smooth loops anyway

it can be used to just smooth out any vertex, not have to make loops out of it =)

Jeppe · Post by **Jeppe** » 9 Jan 2006, 02:07

do we really need this kinda topic? i mean jÃ¤vla noobs!

Bogart · Post by **Bogart** » 9 Jan 2006, 09:20

Haha youÂ´re swedish, lovely me too!

But that was really low to say that weÂ´re noobs

I actually tried boneless tip about drawing on a piece of paper. And it actually worked so later IÂ´ll make the best level ever!

No but this thread doesnÂ´t do any harm does it? So just come with a tip or leave it alone would ya!

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 9 Jan 2006, 17:36

I've never used xiit ALE for level making, just to add custom symbols in level names =)

dz · Post by dz » 9 Jan 2006, 18:15

8-ball wrote:I've never used xiit ALE for level making

Why do you think ALE is cheating?

DamRho · Post by **DamRho** » 9 Jan 2006, 18:35

dz wrote:
8-ball wrote:I've never used xiit ALE for level making
Why do you think ALE is cheating?

He meant the other xiiit.

dz · Post by dz » 9 Jan 2006, 20:59

DamRho wrote:He meant the other xiiit.

I don't understand what you are trying to say.

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 9 Jan 2006, 23:02

Autograss? Copying polygons?

OK maybe it sounds like the same as when 1.11 patch came out and everyone was able to do alovolt ez, so veterans who were able to do alo normally, were pissed off =)

Ramone · Post by **Ramone** » 10 Jan 2006, 18:04

The_BoneLESS wrote:Really good tip John...

Another tip is before throwing yourself in the editor, try thinking about the level and drawing the level on a piece of paper first. When you think your level looks playable and good, make it in the editor.

ItÂ´s just impossible to draw on paper. Someone once said this was a good way to make levels. So I tried. Fuck that sucked. Nothing worked as a planned, just normal jumps that was needed to even finish the level wasnt possible. Just impossible to know how things work irl (irl = when you accually play with the Real elmabike). When I make a level I dont plan at all how it shall be, I just open the editor.. makes a few polygons and hope for the best. If the level sucks I just move on and make another one, I never bother spending time to change a crappy level to a good one.. once crappy, crappy. Then, if yuou didnt know.. I make tons of levels. Most crappy, most that ppl never get to see.. only me hehe..
I usually dont spend too much time on every level.. sometimes when I like a level I have a bad habit of putting too much time to make it "perfect", which really just sucks...

sierra · Post by **sierra** » 10 Jan 2006, 18:20

I agree with ramone, I once tried to draw a level and I found it pretty impossible to replicate it in the editor

berhabdul · Post by **berhabdul** » 10 Jan 2006, 18:57

Strange. I did it many times at school my on every lesson i design new levels on paper and it works but i admit that it's hard to replicae in editor

niN · Post by **niN** » 10 Jan 2006, 19:29

I've got a little tip.
* When the level is finished you need to name it (It's always a lot more fun to play a named level) remember to say what number the level is. It's a real pain in the but not knowing the number of the level when you have got a nice rec.
* try and get an good/average time in the top ten before publishing it. I think it's always a lot more fun to know the average time of the level before the actuall hoyling. however don't "super hoyl" the level before publishing it. If I can't make the top ten on a level i just downloaded I get tired of the level quite fast.
//niN

Bogart · Post by **Bogart** » 11 Jan 2006, 14:39

It's a real pain in the but not knowing the number of the level when you have got a nice rec.

So true!

Okey, this thread didnÂ´t turn out exactly as I wanted it...

IÂ´m the most intersted in my last point:

And IÂ´m also interested in some level designing bugs if there is. So as lines in the level that isnÂ´t there. (?!). If you know what I mean...

Anyone who has an idea what IÂ´m mean and has an answer?

Kopaka · Post by **Kopaka** » 11 Jan 2006, 14:46

Bogart wrote:
And IÂ´m also interested in some level designing bugs if there is. So as lines in the level that isnÂ´t there. (?!). If you know what I mean...
Anyone who has an idea what IÂ´m mean and has an answer?

Yeah. It mostly happens because you place to polygons very close to each other. You can often get it away by changing the vertex's very little, or put some very small polygon in the air where the line is, that will make the line stop at that polygon.

Xhomaz · Post by **Xhomaz** » 11 Jan 2006, 14:47

If 2 vertexes or polygons are placed very close to each other, sometimes a bug line appear. You can drive right through it. If you edit your vertex or polygon a little, the bug line will most likely be gone. I wouldn't recommend trying to make bug lines, as the interfere with the playing and are ugly.

John · Post by **John** » 11 Jan 2006, 16:32

hm Ive seen some rec where someone seemed to drive a normal vertical pipe but when I turned map on that pipe didnt exist, and it was just solid ground there, that some bug for ya! =)

Bogart · Post by **Bogart** » 11 Jan 2006, 20:20

Kopaka wrote:

Yeah. It mostly happens because you place to polygons very close to each other. You can often get it away by changing the vertex's very little, or put some very small polygon in the air where the line is, that will make the line stop at that polygon.

Okey so itÂ´s pretty hard to do then...

Xhomaz wrote:

I wouldn't recommend trying to make bug lines, as the interfere with the playing and are ugly.

But wouldnÂ´t it be kind of fun if you do a level which is very hard to guess whatÂ´s gonna happen? So as invisible polygons, "drawing bugs", wrong textures and so on...

Edit: How am I doing those "xxx wrote:" stuff correctly?

zebra · Post by **zebra** » 11 Jan 2006, 23:51

The_BoneLESS wrote:Really good tip John...

Another tip is before throwing yourself in the editor, try thinking about the level and drawing the level on a piece of paper first. When you think your level looks playable and good, make it in the editor.

I have tried that couple of times. The only problem is that the levs get very big

For example The Analysis i made first on paper.

This is maybe the most buggy lev ever I have seen, thanks to Juski. He said he got the errors with Ale: http://koti.mbnet.fi/zebra/women.lev

By the way, I made an article about level designing tips, it can be found here: http://koti.mbnet.fi/zebra/level_designing_tips.html

berhabdul · Post by **berhabdul** » 12 Jan 2006, 00:16

Nice, Zebra! Golden Apple for You!

Xiphias · Post by **Xiphias** » 12 Jan 2006, 00:23

ok?.... u may relax a bit.

Ez finding the error... but cool buggy lvl

niN · Post by **niN** » 12 Jan 2006, 16:34

hey Zebra! nice one! It helped me quite a lot.

Juski · Post by **Juski** » 12 Jan 2006, 18:33

Bogart wrote:But wouldnÂ´t it be kind of fun if you do a level which is very hard to guess whatÂ´s gonna happen? So as invisible polygons, "drawing bugs", wrong textures and so on...

NO!

And thanks to zebra who uploaded my lev :* thought of doing it myself but never really got to itn and btw that isn't the worst bugs i have done, did some big apple harvest fall level the was leik that but 5x bigger.

Bogart · Post by **Bogart** » 13 Jan 2006, 18:02

NO!

OK, seems like youÂ´re pretty sure about this. There will be no such level!

Lukazz · Post by **Lukazz** » 13 Jan 2006, 18:46

yes he is pretty sure and i can promise you one thing! nobody will play an invisible vertext level more than one time

jonsterion · Post by **jonsterion** » 13 Jan 2006, 19:01

Try designing level backwards: place flower anywere and make the lev from end to start.

John · Post by **John** » 13 Jan 2006, 19:34

havent u already given that tip? =)

jonsterion · Post by **jonsterion** » 13 Jan 2006, 22:29

haha lol ye I did

IÂ´ve finished some lev some hours ago using that method... anyway, another tip: make a lot of islands with cool shapes and then make some kind of lab proo lev. Just put those islands around "randomly" and youÂ´ll probably get a not so bad lev. IÂ´ve made some like this, including 1 master cup lev

Looks pretty bango but it works.

8-ball · Post by **8-ball** » 14 Jan 2006, 15:01

How do you "put" islands around? o_O

petsen · Post by **petsen** » 14 Jan 2006, 15:12

think he means place random polygons around the map and then you'll have a lev thats ok.... i think...

Bogart · Post by **Bogart** » 16 Jan 2006, 11:09

jonsterion wrote:another tip: make a lot of islands with cool shapes and then make some kind of lab proo lev. Just put those islands around "randomly" and youÂ´ll probably get a not so bad lev.

Cool tip! Made a funny start using that method.