This is something that is often brought up informally on IRC and such but, to my knowledge, it is a problem that has never been resolved.
To whom do we credit new styles??
Consider the quick round fast style. Mr was the first to complete it. He got the wr. He even got the GAA award for it. Yet it is relatively well known that Markku was the one who first conceived the route, which he then described to mr (allegedly over a school lunch table). So we arrive at a complicated situation. All other factors being the same, mr would never have driven that style unless Markku gave him the idea. Yet simultaneously, the style would never have been driven if not for mr.
A similar situation arose with this new Serpents Tale style. Old-schoolers seem reluctant to give Jazka any credit for being the first to complete it, saying that "it's a very well known style", "nobody else could be bothered", "Cloud found it 3 years ago" etc etc. Ironically many of the very people voicing these opinions are those who would have voted for mr in the GAA and congratulated him for his win. The hypocrisy and inconsistency requires no elaboration here, and is a consequence of the thriving cronyism within what I like to think of as "the administration".
There are many other examples of such conflicts arising in elma history; another well-known one is the dispute over Ramp Frenzy, with swos claiming to have invented just about every shortcut in the lev and others mocking him and denying him any credit. Ditto Zig-Zag.
So I feel it is about time to settle the debate once and for all. Quite simply, I ask us to decide:
1) Is it the person who imagines and conceives the style or route who should be credited with its invention?
or
2) Should this credit go to the person who first succeeds the style?
Furthermore, if we could arrive at a consensus on this matter, then concrete statistics could be made for all the styles and shortcuts in the history of Internals
Stylefinding debates..
Moderator: Moporators
Stylefinding debates..
[OMG] | [SpEF] | Apparently my TT was once 39:26:06
In my opinion, every style can be thought of, but in the end the imaginated style becomes a real style when you find out all the little details to execute it.
Let's take Ramp Frenzy direct jump to the final uphill for example. No one has done it but still almost all of us has tried it. If somebody finally achieves doing it one day, everybody would probably tell how old the style is. But what they don't understand is that the 'style' and 'idea' are different things. Style consist of multiple little moves which executes the idea, which makes it a style. Somebody said he invented bowling style ages before the first world record was taken with the bounce. So what? If he was unable to do it it's just an idea. Where's the style? Style how to not make it?
After I drove a world record on ramp frenzy with the mentioned style swos immediately told me he knew the style ages ago. We can't really be sure of it and he was unable to prove it. It's not easy to tell who really invented the 'style' first in the end in a situation like this, for example.
Since it's been so long time and most of the players have quitted who invented many old styles, it's practically impossible to solve it as near as completely. Discussing about it though is fun and might result in interesting results!
Let's take Ramp Frenzy direct jump to the final uphill for example. No one has done it but still almost all of us has tried it. If somebody finally achieves doing it one day, everybody would probably tell how old the style is. But what they don't understand is that the 'style' and 'idea' are different things. Style consist of multiple little moves which executes the idea, which makes it a style. Somebody said he invented bowling style ages before the first world record was taken with the bounce. So what? If he was unable to do it it's just an idea. Where's the style? Style how to not make it?
After I drove a world record on ramp frenzy with the mentioned style swos immediately told me he knew the style ages ago. We can't really be sure of it and he was unable to prove it. It's not easy to tell who really invented the 'style' first in the end in a situation like this, for example.
Since it's been so long time and most of the players have quitted who invented many old styles, it's practically impossible to solve it as near as completely. Discussing about it though is fun and might result in interesting results!
Credit should go to the first one who succeeds because, as the saying goes, "easier said than done". It's easy to say "You can drive straight up to the hole in Ramp Frenzy" but doing it is a COMPLETELY different story.
Spotting a style simply isn't much of an achievement.
Spotting a style simply isn't much of an achievement.
<Fihlvein> another case of zworqy-is-always-right closed i guess
<yoosef> zworqy doesnt suck at anything
<yoosef> zworqy doesnt suck at anything
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The_BoneLESS
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Definitly the guy who finishes the level with the new idea. Jazka's Serpent tale style is quite simple and easy to do but, how on earth has he thought about taking the apple with his head and with that style ? That's the hard thing to do : execute.
Website || TT:38:05:33 || WC5:15th || HHIT for life || 9th world wide ... BAP is next
here you can not say that the first or the second case ALLWAYS should get the glory... many times troughout history a person finds a new trick... can make it... even several times.. but cant make in in a whole run... finish and get wr... he gives it to someone who with that help made wr... and would NEVER been able to do without... like.. we know skint invented CP animal start... why should he not get credit for that? just cause he did not get wr?
Thats just dumb... also ask WCplayers... how many did not get help from others (teammates etc) but the them who helped not always did good results themselfs... yet they helped ALOT.
So sorry, we cannot decide this once and for all!
Thats just dumb... also ask WCplayers... how many did not get help from others (teammates etc) but the them who helped not always did good results themselfs... yet they helped ALOT.
So sorry, we cannot decide this once and for all!
Elasto Mania - ez better
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Juski
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I'd like to agree with ramone a bit i think. For example the situation abuot markku and mr, wihtout markku it would still be a matter of time before someone really did it. And without mr, it would be a matter of even shorter time because i bet markku would keep höyling it or give it to someone else.
Yeh i know pretty far from knowing the style, but atleast he thoughtn abuot it :P
Not wanna take any credit from you just a funny thing; my friend, max n00b, i dont even think he had finished all internals, but when i showed him how to do the current mopo style he was leik "what? i thought you drove right in the beginning and took all apples from there somehow and drove up to top left apple and feel down to flower"milagros wrote:the only style nobody thought was must have been my curva :lol:
Yeh i know pretty far from knowing the style, but atleast he thoughtn abuot it :P
Reading the posts in this thread, it seems that you are starting this off from the easiest, the bigger and 'ground-breaking' new styles. The styles that even changed the path of the kuski, the order of the apple collection. Ah, I wonder how it feels to invent such style :) Usually these styles are so much faster than the earlier, that it easily ends up being a WR, even if it is not diamond-hoyled :)
We can approach this topic from a harder angle. The deepest objective could be to find a name and a rec for each style that eventually ended up being fastest style.
It would be easy, if just all the fastest styles were executed by the 'new-style-executer' faster than the earlier slower styles fastest run on the WR table that time. example:
Hmm, I am unsure if this example is real or if it is made up, but at least it gives the idea.
Mengerle had a diamond-hoyled uphill battle WR. Then comes a person zz that finds 0.2x faster style if executed as finely as mengerles WR. However, this style-inventor can only drive it +0.3x from the potential and he does it. The rec seems fine and nice, everyone who sees it, can immediately see that this style is going to be a new WR style sooner or later. Then person hz is a maniac-hoyl and he 'heard' about the style and how it is different. He is able to drive a WR, even without seeing the style of person zz.
Person hz is easily considered a style-inventor, because he was able to yield some berry with it.
What I want is a list of new styles on each internal and all the 'zz persons' and 'hz persons' behind these styles.
What is a new style?
You can start off thinking about Warm Up... How many styles have there been? -Someone finds out another breaking method just millimeters before or something, but the rec looks almost identical to the previous style, is this a new style??
-Yes I guess it is a new style, but if we want to try collect all the style-inventors here or anywhere sometime, it becomes unbelievably difficult, if we don't draw a line somewhere.
We need a qualifying rule for new styles. For instance in Warm Up, I can only think of a 2 styles being a WR, but I might be wrong.
Then Flat track is harder (for me). I only remember, that for this level across styles + elastomania styles summed up, there is more. If I am correct, the 2 or even 3 latest styles all were found quite quickly after another, or was it just this one style made faster? There is this jump between 6-8 seconds, which is useful also, if it is not done with a front flip, but I guess it's only one style there.
Alright. I could come up with some styles on each levels, but I can't connect any names to them, maybe to some, but I guess it could be possible to find the style-inventors for each styles this way.
We can approach this topic from a harder angle. The deepest objective could be to find a name and a rec for each style that eventually ended up being fastest style.
It would be easy, if just all the fastest styles were executed by the 'new-style-executer' faster than the earlier slower styles fastest run on the WR table that time. example:
Hmm, I am unsure if this example is real or if it is made up, but at least it gives the idea.
Mengerle had a diamond-hoyled uphill battle WR. Then comes a person zz that finds 0.2x faster style if executed as finely as mengerles WR. However, this style-inventor can only drive it +0.3x from the potential and he does it. The rec seems fine and nice, everyone who sees it, can immediately see that this style is going to be a new WR style sooner or later. Then person hz is a maniac-hoyl and he 'heard' about the style and how it is different. He is able to drive a WR, even without seeing the style of person zz.
Person hz is easily considered a style-inventor, because he was able to yield some berry with it.
What I want is a list of new styles on each internal and all the 'zz persons' and 'hz persons' behind these styles.
What is a new style?
You can start off thinking about Warm Up... How many styles have there been? -Someone finds out another breaking method just millimeters before or something, but the rec looks almost identical to the previous style, is this a new style??
-Yes I guess it is a new style, but if we want to try collect all the style-inventors here or anywhere sometime, it becomes unbelievably difficult, if we don't draw a line somewhere.
We need a qualifying rule for new styles. For instance in Warm Up, I can only think of a 2 styles being a WR, but I might be wrong.
Then Flat track is harder (for me). I only remember, that for this level across styles + elastomania styles summed up, there is more. If I am correct, the 2 or even 3 latest styles all were found quite quickly after another, or was it just this one style made faster? There is this jump between 6-8 seconds, which is useful also, if it is not done with a front flip, but I guess it's only one style there.
Alright. I could come up with some styles on each levels, but I can't connect any names to them, maybe to some, but I guess it could be possible to find the style-inventors for each styles this way.
